Thursday, July 9, 2026

The committee met at 0911 in room 151.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Good morning, everyone. It’s a gorgeous summer morning. Thank you for coming in. The Standing Committee on Government Agencies will now come to order. As always, all comments by members and witnesses should go through the Chair.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Our first item of business is the adoption of the subcommittee reports. We have the first subcommittee report, dated Thursday, June 25, 2026. Could I please have a motion? MPP Smith.

Official source

Ms. Laura Smith

I move adoption of the subcommittee report on intended appointments dated Thursday, June 25, 2026, on the order-in-council certificate dated June 19, 2026.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Is there any discussion? Are the members ready to vote? All in favour? Opposed? That carries. We have a subcommittee report dated Thursday, July 2, 2026. Could I please have a motion? MPP Smith.

Official source

Ms. Laura Smith

I move adoption of the subcommittee report on intended appointments dated Thursday, July 2, 2026, on the order-in-council certificate dated June 26, 2026.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Any discussion on that? Are the members ready to vote? All those in favour? Opposed? That carries.

Official source

Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Hugh Mai, intended appointee as member, Council of the College of Dental Technologists of Ontario.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Now to the most scintillating portion of the meeting: We will review our intended appointees. Our first intended appointee today is Hugh Mai. Thank you so much for coming, Hugh. Hugh is nominated as member of the Council of the College of Dental Technologists of Ontario. Hugh, welcome to a friendly committee at Queen’s Park. We’re happy to hear from you. You can take some time to describe yourself and your skills that apply to this position you’re looking for. Your time will be deducted from the government’s time—and they are fine with that—and then the other parties, the official opposition and the third party, will have 10 minutes of questioning. The floor is yours.

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, honourable members. First of all, I’d like to start off by apologizing for being late. I am from out of town. I planned to be here an hour early, but Toronto traffic had other ideas. I learned that the hard way. Again, I apologize. My name is Hugh Mai. I am from London, Ontario. I am the proud father of two wonderful daughters aged 23 and 20. And I am happily married to a wonderful woman named Eleni, without whom, I assure you, I probably would not have been here today. I owe her a lot of gratitude for her sacrifices for me. I am a graduate of the University of Western Ontario, with a BA in political science. I am continuing on in that direction. I’m, by my count, about one and a half credits shy of my honours specialization. I believe in education, continuing education. I think it’s very important. I am also a graduate of the paralegal program from Fanshawe College. I have a postgrad certificate in paralegal studies. I completed that aspect in October 2020. This was during COVID; it was right in between the first wave and the second wave. I successfully wrote the test in February 2021 and became licensed as a paralegal in May 2021. Of course, it was during COVID that I became licensed by the Law Society of Ontario. There wasn’t a lot of people hiring—so I wasn’t able to acquire any sort of experience at that time. I decided to take it upon myself, and I started a small paralegal firm, Hugh Mai Paralegal Services, in London, Ontario, so that I could take it upon myself to gain experience, where the opportunities weren’t around. So I did that for a few years, and I’m still doing that, obviously. Then, an opportunity came. A friend of mine, who was also in my graduating class at the paralegal school at Fanshawe, said that there were opportunities for teaching positions at Fanshawe College. So I threw my hat in the ring and decided to apply, and I was successful. I’ve been teaching part-time at Fanshawe since, more or less, February 2024. More recently, I was also made aware by the same person that the Landlord and Tenant Board might be hiring. I thought that might be a good career move, so I went onto the government portal and put in my information. I had an initial interview with them, but it didn’t go further than that, unfortunately. But my name was still in the portal, and that is where I was found by somebody within this establishment—that my credentials might allow me to perhaps be an interesting addition as a member to the college of dental technicians. So I thought, “Yes, that sounds like an excellent opportunity. It’s nothing I’m really aware of, but it’s something that I would love to sink my teeth into.”

Official source

Laughter.

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I actually didn’t mean that. That’s funny. That was a happy accident. Anyway, here I am. I was asked to appear before you today in this regard, and I look forward to answering any of your questions. I just want to say that I am absolutely humbled and proud to be in front of all of you distinguished people. Thank you.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Thank you very much for sharing your story. We have five minutes and 28 seconds for the government side. Any questions?

Official source

Mr. Sheref Sabawy

Thank you very much, Mr. Mai, for sharing all the different contributions you did and initiatives you started. You shared that you’re simply a registered paralegal, which is another role that requires registration, with regulation and an oversight body. Going through that process of registration and dealing with the situations—deeper work and all this; interviews and stuff—what do you hope to bring to this board, given your proficient background and this perspective?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Well, what I would like to bring to it, from what I understand, is that I could offer up a unique perspective regarding everything. I am governed by the Law Society of Ontario, so I am familiar with self-regulating bodies. I was also assured that my credentials would be on top of my legal background—it would also be my academic background in political science and also myself being a small, sole proprietor of my own paralegal firm. All of that put together would allow me, perhaps, the ability to view things through a lens that other people might not be able to see, and I think that I could offer up unique matters towards hopefully resolving any issues that arise.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

MPP Bailey.

Official source

Mr. Robert Bailey

Welcome, Hugh. I love your sense of humour. I won’t ask you if you ever represented Dr. Yank-and-Pull—I had to work that in there. Anyway, can you give us an example of some of your legal background in your legal career, where you think that would be of service in this new role—bringing that kind of governance rules from your legal career into this board?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I would say that in regard to that specifically, there is the legislation involved with this—I believe there are, specifically, the three pieces of legislation that are relevant to this. I can’t quite remember them off the top of my head; if you gave me a minute, I am sure I could, but time is pending. I am well versed in being able to go over the various pieces of legislation and becoming highly competent in that in due time. That kind of skill would allow me to fit right in, and very shortly, as soon as necessary.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

MPP Denault.

Official source

MPP Billy Denault

Thank you, Mr. Mai, for coming in and for sharing your experience. I do note that as a professor teaching business law at Fanshawe College—it’s kind of an interesting intersection with that and your profession, as a paralegal. Do you think your duties when it comes to teaching students and grading work will add value to your role on the board?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I think it could add value, in that as a professor, you have to take the information and evaluate issues. Students, for example, may be having problems. You have to assess what problems they have and come up with creative solutions by which to resolve those problems.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

MPP Dowie.

Official source

Mr. Andrew Dowie

Thank you, Mr. Mai, for being here. As a paralegal, you are part of a self-regulated profession, and now you’re going to join the council of another self-regulated profession. You have definitely got an awareness of how they work, with the complaints, the discipline committees, and some of the governance issues. So I’m hoping to find out—

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

One-minute warning.

Official source

Mr. Andrew Dowie

Thank you. How do you see yourself contributing to the council’s objectives in regulating this profession and ensuring that the practitioners are well-qualified?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Well, I’m a fan of all the good things like truth, justice, transparency, openness to the public, fairness to the people we will be dealing with and measuring that against the interests of the public. I’m really happy about this potential opportunity because servicing the public is a great opportunity, I think. That is a bit of a segue there—but, yes, that’s what I feel about that.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Over to the official opposition: MPP Gates, please.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

Good morning, sir. It’s nice to see you here. I only wish that everybody who applies for committees would show up. Even if they show up late, at least they’re showing up. So I congratulate you on being here today. I’m going to ask you familiar questions to this committee, asked of everybody who comes before the committee, who I question. Do you belong to a party?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I do belong to the Conservative Party of Canada. I have no affiliations within the provincial realm. That is not to say that I am an ideologue by any sense. I have supported the NDP in the past, federally, anyway. I think that Jack Layton would have been a great Prime Minister if he’d had the opportunity. As I said, I’m not an ideologue. I just go with where I think is the best—

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

But you have belonged to the PC Party. Did you ever make any—

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

The PC Party? No, that’s not correct. The Conservative Party of Canada. I’ve never been a member of the Ontario party. I have no affiliations provincially.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

Have you ever donated to a party?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Yes.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

Have you ever campaigned for a party?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

No.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

You’ve never gone door to door?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

No.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

You mentioned that you were approached to apply for this. Who approached you or asked you?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Joseph—I forgot his last name. Cananza? I could look that up. Do you know who I’m talking about?

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

I don’t.

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

It was the gentleman who just brought me into the room.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

Okay, that’s fair. With your background in law, how will your skills benefit the College of Dental Technologists of Ontario, and what will your role be on that council?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I’m not exactly sure I can speak to what my role would be as of yet because, well, this is my first attempt at anything in this regard. Obviously, there is legislation that has to be done, and I would uphold the law as much as possible, trying to factor in the human factor as well, obviously. But I’m sure that the legislation and the rules of the college only give me so much leeway with that. To properly answer that, I would definitely have to understand everything much more than just the surface level of what I understand right now.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

How familiar are you with the work of a dental technologist and the state of dentistry across Ontario?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I don’t have a lot in that. I intend to learn that fast. As a paralegal—and all legal professionals in general, where they may not be up to par where they’re supposed to be, they are trained to be able to catch up on that within due time. I assure you that I’ve done that many times in the past, and I will do that as well in the future. There was another part of that question; I don’t think I answered that.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

No, that’s fine. I’ll give you another one that will maybe make it easier for you. Would it be fair to say that you really don’t have any experience in this field?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

My experience is that an old friend of mine became a dental technologist back about 30 years ago. Outside of the legislation that I’ve read over regarding this matter, I do not have a lot of experience involved in this, no.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

So if we say that you don’t have any, that would be fair?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Yes, I think so.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

I think so, too. I’m going to ask you this question—you might not be able to answer this one either: What’s the most important issue you hope to address during your term?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

The most important issue that is my priority is serving the public as they deserve in truth, honesty and transparency.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

I think it’s fair to say, again, that you really don’t know the issues. Even in your own submission, you’re saying that you’re willing to learn, you’re a quick learner, all that kind of stuff, but it’s fair to say that you don’t have any. I’m going to ask you another question, because I think—

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Well, self-regulating bodies—I do have experience with how the Law Society of Ontario works. It’s a similar situation, and I’m sure that my knowledge in that regard is easily transferable to this particular college.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

It may be.

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I would think so.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

Through your work with the Ark Aid Mission, I understand you work with a lot of people in need. A lack of dental care is a common issue for people living in poverty. I think we all, around this table, know that. Can you speak to what you would like to see from the CDTO to expand access to care for people who need dentistry, who really can’t afford it?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I do subscribe that there should be help for people who are unable to provide for themselves. There’s no question about that. We may not exactly agree on how that is, but I think you and I both have the same idea that when people are in need, there needs to be help involved in that, particularly with young children and seniors. I’ve also been made aware that there is already some help that can be provided to people who are in need, but I’m guessing that, as with just about everything else, there probably isn’t quite enough.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

Well, you don’t have to guess in that. We know it’s not enough. And you’ve hit on two really important groups. People living in poverty—young children and seniors—are really struggling with dental as well. How would you help ensure that the reviews and complaints are considered fairly for all parties?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Well, for that, I believe that I would have to defer to the proper legislation. I would also probably look into if there’s any sort of past case law in regard to that treatment. I imagine that, when working with the other members, there would be discussions on how to better facilitate that sort of a public benefit.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

What steps can the province take to make sure we have adequate dentistry staff across Ontario? After the government cut OSAP this year, the association of dental technologists said that they expect these changes to worsen Ontario’s severe shortage of dental workers. Can you speak to the importance of a fully staffed workforce in Ontario dentistry?

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Just a minute. MPP Smith, on a point of order?

Official source

Ms. Laura Smith

If we could keep on the questions that relate to the applicant’s qualifications, please.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Thank you very much. MPP Gates.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

I appreciate it. Thank you. Could you answer the question, please?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I think that the situation of being improperly funded is a travesty. I’m not sure that you and I would agree on what that means. But like I said, I think that we can both agree that we want what’s best for the public. Again, I don’t have any partisan leanings here in the province of Ontario. I have kept my mind open to that. If you are trying to find out if I have any kind of like for the current Premier and his policies, I’m not going to admit or deny that.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

One-minute warning.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

I think we can agree on one thing: that the cuts have not helped the dentistry—and it’s certainly not helping the staffing that we need in the dentistry profession. I think we can agree on that.

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I would agree on that, yes.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

That’s not political. That’s saying a fact: that the cuts are not helping, and it’s hurting the dentistry—

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Sorry. MPP Smith, with a point of order again.

Official source

Ms. Laura Smith

Once again, the questions should pertain around the applicant’s qualifications.

Official source

MPP Wayne Gates

I appreciate that. I have no further questions.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

On to the third party: MPP Smyth.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

Thank you, Mr. Mai, for being here today. I know some of these questions can be uncomfortable, but I think we’re just trying to examine appointees to the various agencies of this government and see how suitable or not they might be. You did mention in your remarks that initially you were applying to the LTB, Landlord and Tenant Board, which you saw as a professional opportunity. Do you see this appointment to this Council of the College of Dental Technologists of Ontario as a step in your career rather than, maybe, public service?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Can’t it be both?

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

I don’t know. Can it?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I’m doing it mainly for public service, but I’m not going to deny that this would probably look good on a résumé. But that’s not to say that I would step away. The terms for this are unlimited, if I read the legislation right—well, the number of terms, anyway. I believe it’s three-year terms, but unlimited—with the LTB, I think it was a maximum of three terms, where here, it’s not. If things work out well here, I see no point in leaving if I can contribute to the public service. And that is my highest intention here because, well, the remuneration isn’t that great, if I read that right, which is fine by me, because I’m not doing it for the money. I’m not going to lie; a little bit of credit might be okay. Who knows, maybe one day I’ll want to consider running for a seat in the provincial Parliament, like most of you have. It seems like a rewarding career.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

Oh. Which party?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I haven’t decided yet. Like I said, I have my leanings federally. I have no leanings provincially at this time.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

When you mentioned that you were thinking about the Landlord and Tenant Board, I thought that that makes sense. We need experienced paralegals there. It definitely fits. When I saw the council of the College of Dental Technologists of Ontario, I found it hard to square that circle—or whatever the expression is. Your admitted lack of experience in this field, in health care or the dental setting—do you see that as a potential barrier to being able to do the best possible public service that you intend to do?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

No, I think I can do a great job in this. There’s already the legislation—I will catch up on that really fast, obviously. My mother was a nurse. My brother’s ex-wife was a nurse. There are a lot of health care matters in the family in that—not that I have any personal experience in that myself. Also, in the discussion online, when I was going over everything, it said that having a great knowledge in that to begin with—it is not necessarily a hindrance to being able to do a good job, initially, anyway. It was, again, suggested that my credentials—that being a political science academic, my legal experience, my business experience as a sole proprietor of my little firm, and my teaching at Fanshawe College in business, would provide me with valuable insights which I can bring to the table, and come up with novel solutions, fair solutions. I’d like to reiterate that I am bound by higher standards of ethics as a legal representative, a member of the Law Society of Ontario. I think that, in the aspect of the public members who are not associated—as with some of the other members who are of the profession, I am more than convinced I can bring fresh ideas, honest ideas, honest conclusions, a high standard of ethics. I don’t like lies, so transparency would be very high on my list.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

And when you considered applying to this board, the council for the college of dental technologists, I am assuming you did a lot of research to make sure you were a good fit. To that point, what is the major issue that you would want to deal with, that you would hope to effect change in, in the public interest, with this appointment?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Again, I’m not going to lie; I have to admit I would have to spend some time speaking with other members, going over and being fully versed in the legislation to see what those contributions would be. But they would be there, and they would be of value.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

The council has a really big role in oversight of professional conduct or misconduct of dental technicians. How do you think your experience will help you with what could be potentially really serious matters?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Well, I have to look at each matter on an individual basis; judge the facts and rule accordingly, taking in mind legislation case law if there is any; be fair and honest; and, as always, look into making sure that it is the protection of the public that is of the highest importance.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

We obviously investigate appointees to these agencies and tribunals across the province. Just looking at your footprint, your public social media activity includes sharing posts from federal political leaders about cutting institutional bureaucracy. Under Ontario’s provincial directives, where do you actually see unnecessary red tape within the dental regulatory body that can be cut without risking the safety of patient medical devices?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

First, I would like to say that some of my Facebook posts are meant to rib fellow graduates from the social science program that we all graduated together. We all have different ideas. One of my closest friends is a Marxist, but—

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Sorry to interrupt. MPP Smith, on a point of order.

Official source

Ms. Laura Smith

Sorry. Madam Chair, if we could once again focus on qualifications of the applicant.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Thank you very much. MPP Smyth—just to link strongly to the qualifications.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

Okay. Hopefully, this will pass the test. You’ve been a professor at Fanshawe’s school of business, and you know how critical it is, I assume, to get grads into the workforce. Given the health care labour shortages right now, how would you evaluate if the college’s entry exams are creating unfair administrative barriers for, say, foreign-trained dental technologists?

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Well, if that is the case, then we definitely have to look into this. I am rather aware of how admissions that are prejudicial and inappropriate can hold you back. I did write the LSAT a few years ago—quite a few years ago now—and I had problems with the logic games. Several years ago, some students who were sight-impaired sued, actually, the LSAC, because they felt that it was prejudicial because the method of solving them required great amounts of visual help. So they sued and won.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

One-minute warning.

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

The LSAC even concluded, as I did after writing that test, that the logic games in themselves had no bearing on how well somebody would do in law school or as a lawyer. So, obviously, I have a really nasty grudge against false barriers to success.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

Thank you very much, Mr. Mai. We appreciate you coming before us today.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Thank you very much for coming in and taking the time to do so, Hugh, and sharing your story. Sometimes coming to this committee is a little bit like going to the dentist. So we thank you for your time.

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

Thank you very much. I had a wonderful time. I appreciate everyone’s questions. It was great.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

You’re welcome to stay. We do have quite a few people to interview today. You’re welcome to stay and observe, or you’re welcome to go on your merry way and find out about the results later. Thank you very much.

Official source

Mr. Hugh Mai

I would love to stay, but I do have to go because I have to teach a class at 3. With this traffic, I better get going as soon as possible.

Official source

The Chair (Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon)

Okay. Thank you so kindly.

Official source