1:00 p.m.Official transcript
The committee met at 1300 in committee room 1.
Legislative Assembly of Ontario · Committee
Wednesday, October 28, 2026
Standing Committee on Heritage, Infrastructure and Cultural Policy · Room 1
The official transcript of the meeting, from Hansard, by heading. Ministers, officials and witnesses appear as the transcript names them; committees have no live transcript, so the record appears once the Assembly publishes it.
1:00 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
Good afternoon, everyone. The Standing Committee on Heritage, Infrastructure and Cultural Policy will now come to order. Welcome to all the new members appointed to this committee.
Appointment of subcommittee
1:00 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
The first item of business on the agenda is the appointment of a government subcommittee member. Is there a motion, by chance? MPP Denault.
1:00 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Billy Denault
I move that MPP Pinsonneault be appointed to the subcommittee on committee business.
1:00 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
MPP Denault has made a motion. Is there any debate? Seeing none, are the members ready to vote? Shall the motion carry? All those in favour, please raise your hands. All those opposed, please raise your hands. I declare the motion carried.
Ministry of Infrastructure
1:00 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
We are now meeting to consider the 2026-27 estimates of the Ministry of Infrastructure, for a total of two hours. We are joined today by staff from Hansard, broadcast and recording, and legislative research. From the ministry, we are joined by the Honourable David Piccini—welcome—Minister of Infrastructure; Ali Veshkini, deputy minister; along with other staff from the ministry. As a reminder, the ministry is required to monitor the proceedings for any questions or issues that the ministry undertakes to address. I trust that the deputy minister has arranged to have the hearings closely monitored with respect to questions raised so that the ministry can respond accordingly. Are there any questions from the members before we start? Seeing none, I’m now required to call 4001, which sets the review process in motion. We will begin with a statement from the minister for up to 20 minutes. Minister, welcome again. The floor is yours.
1:00 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Thank you very much, Chair, and colleagues. It’s wonderful to join all of you here today. I am pleased to speak here about estimates for the Ministry of Infrastructure. I was honoured to take over the portfolio in September, just very recently, building on accomplishments that we made at labour and environment prior to that. I am joined today by Deputy Minister Ali Veshkini here and the incredible team at the Ministry of Infrastructure who are behind me. It has been a real privilege getting to work with them and getting to know them over the past number of weeks. We welcome this opportunity to highlight our ministry’s accomplishments and progress as we deliver on the government’s priorities. Obviously, as Ontario continues to navigate global economic uncertainty and unwarranted US tariffs, our government remains very focused on protecting Ontario by pressing ahead with our $236-billion infrastructure plan. It’s the largest capital investment of its kind in this country’s history. Shovels are in the ground across Ontario, building new schools, hospitals, public transit, water systems, roads, bridges, and housing-enabling infrastructure. These projects are boosting Ontario’s construction sector and helping to support its 577,000 workers. At the same time, our infrastructure investments are also supporting Ontario’s long-term competitiveness and resilience by ensuring that communities, families and businesses have the infrastructure, housing and services to grow and to prosper. Our government recognizes that our $236-billion capital plan creates incredible economic opportunities for countless businesses and organizations across a number of sectors. That is why, in the face of a strained trading relationship with the United States and global economic uncertainty, we introduced the Buy Ontario Act. In support of this legislation, the government released a new buy-Ontario procurement directive, which took effect in April of this year. It sets out the requirements that public sector organizations must follow: to prioritize Ontario and Canadian goods and services and public sector construction procurement, while maintaining value for money and the timely delivery of infrastructure projects. Provincial ministries, agencies, municipalities and the broader Ontario public sector are bound by this procurement directive. Our goal is to ensure that the construction materials, fixtures and equipment used in public sector capital infrastructure projects are sourced locally as much as possible—Buy Ontario for Ontario. Buy Ontario is one of the main ways we are ensuring that the tax dollars we spend on public procurements are invested back into Ontario families, businesses and communities. The delivery of such an ambitious capital plan demands innovation and close partnership across governments with the communities we serve and the construction sector. To that end, we’ve also taken fundamental steps to further integrate our approach to infrastructure delivery within projects across Ontario. The team is working with all of our partners to streamline processes, improve project tracking and strengthen performance measurement. By centralizing the delivery and oversight of infrastructure projects within a dedicated team at MOI, we can deliver better value for taxpayers and speed up project timelines to get shovels in the ground faster. As a first step, the ministry has assumed the capital delivery for major hospital projects and long-term-care homes. It’s very exciting. And we will be exploring opportunities to expand this approach to other capital projects across government—coming to a ministry near you soon. One of the primary ways we engage with the construction sector is through Infrastructure Ontario’s market update. The most recent market update, from this past June, included a pipeline of 24 projects currently in pre-procurement and active procurement stages, representing a combined design and construction value of more than $25 billion. The market update also included 19 government-announced projects that are in the early planning phase. Highlights from the June market update included: —substantial completion of the Finch West and Eglinton Crosstown LRT projects in Toronto; —contract execution for the new Ontario Science Centre facility at Ontario Place; —contract execution for the Stevenson Memorial Hospital redevelopment project in Alliston; and —the Brockville Correctional Complex and St. Lawrence Valley Correctional and Treatment Centre, which moved from pre-procurement to active procurement. MOI and Infrastructure Ontario are also working closely to harness the power of new tools and technology to improve the quality, speed and effectiveness of infrastructure delivery. A recent example is our work to incorporate digital twins and, specifically, building information modelling, or BIM, into our project pipeline, procurement and contracting processes. The technology creates a virtual model of an existing or planned infrastructure asset, including detailed visual representations of internal systems and utilities. IO recently incorporated building information modelling into the procurement and contract requirements for the Ontario Provincial Police detachment and administrative and maintenance complex at Ontario Place. I saw first-hand the value of this modelling when I recently toured Parliament Hill and saw the value that provided that project federally. Our government is also exploring opportunities to create a centralized digital map of all underground infrastructure in Ontario. Recently announced in the bill, I joined colleagues in announcing yesterday that this would include pipes, cables and other installations. Currently, planning around underground utilities and other assets remains a major challenge, especially on large infrastructure projects. In addition, information on the location of these underground utilities is fragmented, inconsistent and maintained by hundreds of organizations across the province. This makes it difficult to access reliable information needed to plan and build infrastructure projects. A centralized approach could help reduce costs, speed up delivery of infrastructure projects, and keep job sites safer for workers. I have asked Infrastructure Ontario to develop a plan to move forward with this initiative, leveraging the expertise of partners such as Metrolinx and Ontario Dig Authority, formerly Ontario One Call. Yesterday, as I mentioned, we introduced the Building Ontario Faster Act, which would enable the collection of location information for underground infrastructure assets across the province. We look forward to sharing further updates as this initiative progresses. Colleagues, MOI’s expertise in the delivery of complex infrastructure projects has also expanded beyond Ontario borders. It’s why Ontario has been front and centre in the push for a stronger, more united Canada. To support these goals, we’re working with our provincial partners to develop a potential northern shield energy corridor. This corridor includes a proposed 3,300-kilometre pipeline that would move crude oil from Hardisty, Alberta, to Sarnia, Ontario. This would be an end-to-end national energy corridor to boost Canada’s energy and economic sovereignty, to reduce our reliance on foreign markets and strengthen trade diversification. The project would also provide critical redundancy to existing infrastructure, bring additional capacity to our refineries in Sarnia, bolster our supply chain, and create new jobs for Canadian workers. A feasibility study is expected to be completed by the end of 2026, or I’m sure MPP Bailey will be in touch. Our centralized approach to the delivery and oversight of key public infrastructure projects has also extended to government real estate. Ontario’s real estate portfolio is one of the largest in Canada, with more than 1,900 buildings and structures, 37 million square feet of rentable space and around 640,000 acres of land. Effective April 1 of this year, our government implemented phase 2 of the Centralization of Broader Real Estate Authority—CBREA—initiative. Previously, real estate authority and responsibility were spread across more than 60 provincial organizations. Through the centralization, we’ve significantly reduced the number of provincial organizations exercising stand-alone real estate authority, consolidating responsibility within the Ministry of Infrastructure. We know this approach will allow for better coordination, allowing us to advance key priorities like housing, transit-oriented communities, economic development and long-term care. A further way we’re supporting these priorities is through the sale of surplus and underused government properties. Since 2018, we’ve sold 163 surplus properties, generating over $348 million in revenue, saving taxpayers $5.6 million annually in reduced operations and maintenance costs. A recent example is in Edwardsburgh Cardinal. The province is transferring more than 10,000 acres of land to the township. This agreement is expected to create approximately 600 jobs in the community and generate about $187 million in economic value for the region over the next decade. The transfer will help unlock future farm operations; create much-needed housing; and support conservation efforts, including potential new forests and trails for residents. In addition to modernizing our approach to managing government real estate, we’re working to optimize the government’s office real estate portfolio by investing strategically in a mix of core owned and leased properties. We recently acquired four office buildings in Toronto to improve the long-term fiscal sustainability of our operations. These include buildings at 438 University Avenue, 25 Sheppard Avenue West, 1 Queen Street East, and an interconnected asset at 20 Richmond Street East. The government had an established, long-term presence at these locations. The transition from leased to owned will reduce ongoing operating costs, saving taxpayers approximately $100 million over the next 20-year period. Meanwhile, we continue to focus on finalizing the Macdonald Block reconstruction in downtown Toronto. Once complete, the complex will reduce downtown lease costs, saving millions of dollars. Renovation work on this 50-plus-year-old heritage building has faced some technical and cost-pressure challenges that we continue to manage responsibly. Infrastructure Ontario is negotiating with the project consortium to reach an agreement to complete the project as quickly as possible, and we expect updates within the year. The Queen’s Park restoration project is another exciting project. The current Ontario Legislative Building we know has been in use since 1893 and has reached a point where piecemeal repairs are simply no longer viable. A full restoration is needed to bring the building up to modern safety, environmental and accessibility standards while conserving its historical and cultural integrity. A primary focus for the ministry, in partnership with Infrastructure Ontario and the Office of the Legislative Assembly, is determining the best options for maintaining the Legislature’s operations during this renovation. At this time, no decisions have been made, and we look forward to sharing more details as the process unfolds. Another key priority for our government is making life more convenient and affordable for families and residents by supporting more housing and increased transit options. Ontario is investing $70 billion in the largest transit expansion in North America, including the largest subway expansion in Canadian history. Ontario’s population is projected to increase by almost four million people by 2051, leading to greater congestion and a significant demand for more housing, public transportation and new transit connections.
1:12 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
A key part of our strategy to fight gridlock and increase the housing supply is to build vibrant, mixed-use communities within a short distance of transit. Through the Transit-Oriented Communities Program, also known as TOC, the province is proposing TOC sites at 14 future stations along the province’s priority subway projects in Toronto, including the Ontario Line, the Yonge North subway extension, the Scarborough subway extension and the Eglinton Crosstown West extension. TOCs are also being proposed at eight stations along the GO and light rail transit networks, including the Lakeshore East and West lines, the Milton line and the Stouffville line. It’s estimated that the TOC Program could deliver approximately just shy of 300,000 new homes and accommodate over 82,000 jobs near transit stations—not to mention the common-sense reality of living above or around public transit and being able to get to work that much faster. To support building TOCs and transit stations faster and smarter, our government has introduced new tools and measures to unlock the value of our transit investments. This includes the transit station charge, an optional tool that helps eligible municipalities fund the design and construction of new GO stations and recover the costs as new housing and developments are built around these stations. It was created in response to requests from our municipal partners. Already, Durham region, the city of Vaughan, Halton region and Niagara have expressed interest in taking the next steps to implement this tool. We look forward to sharing with members more on this in the coming months. The province, federal government and the city of Toronto have also jointly invested almost $2.4 billion in the Waterfront Toronto initiative, with nearly $800 million from the province alone. As a result of our investments, a new community is taking shape that will ultimately include parks and public space, attractions for residents and visitors, and along nearby Queens Quay, up to 14,000 new homes, including affordable rental units. Waterfront Toronto recently issued a request for qualifications to secure a development partner for the first residential buildings on the new island created by re-naturalizing the mouth of the Don River—the Ookwemin Minising new island and park there, that I recently visited alongside Waterfront Toronto leadership and board members. In March, the former acting Minister of Infrastructure, Minister McCarthy, joined Prime Minister Carney, Premier Ford and Mayor Chow to announce that our three levels of government are investing together to bring rapid transit to the eastern waterfront. Most recently, in June, we celebrated the expansion of Biidaasige Park, Toronto’s largest new park in a generation, that is already proving to be a great hit with children and the young at heart. In addition to the new housing, parkland and amenities, Waterfront Toronto forecasts that building this world-class community is expected to generate 100,000 skilled trades jobs and contribute approximately $13.2 billion to the economy. For those of you who haven’t had the chance to visit it, I would highly encourage you to go down and then grab some barbecue on Cherry Street after you’re done. It is a beautiful, beautiful space, and I look forward to seeing that space continue to come to life. In addition to job creation, investing in public infrastructure also stimulates community growth, encourages nearby development and unlocks new housing opportunities. In fact, municipalities report that one of the greatest barriers to getting more housing built is the cost of the servicing infrastructure needed to support more homes, like roads, bridges, drinking water and waste water systems and facilities. In response to these challenges, in 2024 we launched the Municipal Infrastructure Housing Program, or MHIP. Demand was high, with the program was immediately oversubscribed. Recognizing the urgency and significant need, we quickly expanded from a single $200-million stream to a $4-billion program across five distinct streams. These include: —the Housing-Enabling Water Systems Fund, which helps municipalities develop, repair, rehabilitate and expand their critical drinking water, waste water and stormwater infrastructure; —the Housing-Enabling Core Servicing Stream, which assists municipalities with building, maintaining and repairing roads, bridges and culverts; —the Agriculture and Irrigation Steam; —the Health and Safety Water Stream; and —the new MHIP stream, the Non-Development Charge Municipalities Stream, which will open later this month. Even with Ontario’s historic investments in housing-enabling infrastructure and shovels in the ground for hundreds of projects across the province, all MHIP streams have continued to be oversubscribed. In particular, municipalities that do not levy development charges often face greater challenges in funding infrastructure projects—we know northern and rural, remote communities, in particular. At the same time, these municipalities can also face higher construction costs, aging assets and significant infrastructure backlogs. In response, we’ve worked together with the federal government to launch the new $1-billion federal-provincial Non-Development Charge Municipalities Stream. This new stream is equally cost-shared with Canada’s Build Communities Strong Fund and prioritizes water systems, roads and bridges while also supporting housing development in these communities. As I said, we’re opening intake on the 29th, with additional intakes to be announced at a later date. To date, we’ve seen incredible results—over 305 projects in 230 municipalities and First Nations, and helped unlock approximately 800,000 new homes and maintained water systems for 375,000 existing homes. These sorts of investments to help existing homes and unlock new homes are creating real opportunities for Ontarians, ensuring that—currently, shovels are in the ground for more than 200 active MHIP projects. It’s forecasted to support more than 1,500 jobs annually over the next decade, and those are spread in every single corner of this province. To demonstrate the positive impact, let’s see what township mayor Ted Walker said. He said, “With the plant operating over capacity and development on hold, this investment brings us closer to lifting the freeze that is currently affecting more than 1,500 housing units.” In addition to that, of course, we have the Ontario Community Infrastructure Fund, or OCIF, which this government has significantly expanded over the past number of years. We look forward to sharing more information in the near term on OCIF beyond its current funding commitment, which was a record historic funding commitment for municipalities. In addition, obviously, we’ve mandated asset management plans for municipalities. They can allocate a portion of their funding, up to 40%—whichever is lower—to cover eligible expenditures for the development, updating and improvement of asset management plans. It has been critical in rural communities like mine. I’d like to thank the Chair and committee members for their interest. As you can see, MOI is making incredible progress on the government’s historic $236-billion capital plan to protect Ontario by building the infrastructure that’s creating good-paying jobs, enabling more homes, supporting local businesses and strengthening the economy. Looking ahead, we’ll continue to be innovative and modernize by reducing red tape, streamlining processes, and advancing new tools and technology—this all designed to get shovels in the ground faster and lay the foundation for long-term growth and prosperity in every community across our great province. Thank you, Chair.
1:20 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
Thank you very much, Minister, for your presentation. We will now begin the question-and-answer segment in rotations of 15 minutes for the official opposition members, 15 minutes for the third party member, 15 minutes for the government members, or the remainder of the allotted time. As always, please remember to make your comments through the Chair. As the Chair, if a member seeks to reclaim the floor during the rotation while the minister is responding, I will recognize the member and allow them to reclaim the floor to ask a new question. For the deputy minister, assistant deputy ministers and ministry staff: Please state your name and title the first time you speak so that the proceedings can be accurately recorded in Hansard. I will start with the official opposition. MPP French, please.
1:21 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
Good afternoon, Minister. Welcome to the portfolio. I’m looking forward to having the opportunity to ask some important questions. I appreciate the Chair reminding all of us that there is limited time. I’m sure I won’t need to reclaim my time but, not to be rude, I will if I have to. I want to address the fact that infrastructure costs are doubling, tripling or quadrupling from what they were before this government took power. We don’t have eyes on that. The public isn’t able to scrutinize how the government is spending the money. I hope that we can provide some clarity for the fine folks across the province on some of the important investments and projects that are happening right now. Last year, at estimates, when we talked about the skyrocketing costs resulting from this ministry’s P3 procurement processes—whether it was a hospital or a subway line—the interim minister chose not to answer at that time. Minister, I know you’ve taken carriage of this portfolio, and I’m hoping that you will also be accountable for the skyrocketing costs of infrastructure, or at least take responsibility for it. I want to talk about the transit-oriented communities. You raised it in your remarks. I want to understand the ministry’s oversight of the Transit-Oriented Communities Program. The program’s stated goals, according to the briefing book, are to “help increase transit ridership and address gridlock, while reducing the burden on taxpayers to build transit station infrastructure.” Just to clarify, the way that I understand it is, we cut a deal with a developer, and the public gets cheaper transit infrastructure and other community benefits. Is that the basic idea?
1:23 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Thank you very much, MPP French. There’s a lot to unpack there. Just to start, we, as in this ministry, do not cut deals. Infrastructure Ontario, as an agency, engages in a procurement process. I would start by framing just on the cost pieces you mentioned. First off, yes, I’m accountable for expenditures and, as minister, I’m accountable for this ministry. I think you can appreciate the global realities we have that affect construction costs, which include the pandemic, which include tariffs. Steps we’ve taken to address that, MPP French, include—
1:23 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
No, I’m not asking for the steps to address that specifically—it was more I kind of asked for the general overview of how we do things. I think you provided clarity. I’m going to drill into some specific projects, and I think you’ll have a chance to provide clarity to me with those. I’m glad to hear you say that you don’t cut deals. The problem is, the government has a bad track record when it comes to picking development partners. Its very first transit-oriented community at Mimico in Toronto was to be built by developer Vandyk, which would pay for a new, fully accessible GO station that would otherwise cost taxpayers $105 million. But the new station remains a hole in the ground because Vandyk went bankrupt three years ago. So is the infrastructure ministry or IO currently involved with the Mimico transit-oriented community project?
1:25 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
With respect to transit-oriented communities, let me first start by saying that I think we all agree with the principle of building communities around transit nodes and hubs. Obviously, expanding public transit has been a critical priority of this ministry—
1:25 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
But specific to Mimico—because I think everybody understands the concept of transit-oriented communities—is the infrastructure ministry or Infrastructure Ontario currently involved with the Mimico TOC project?
1:25 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
We’re involved with respect to all of our TOCs that are in various stages. The market realities dictate some of the challenges. I would be happy to defer to the deputy to elaborate a little more.
1:25 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
I think you did just answer, and I’ll be happy for the deputy to confirm that. But if you are still involved—does the minister know when or if a new, fully accessible Mimico GO station will ever be built?
1:26 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Our intent with all of our TOCs and our transit projects is to ensure that they come to life for Ontarians to help make their lives easier. As I mentioned, when we engage with Infrastructure Ontario, who conducts the procurement for our TOCs, something I’m working with Infrastructure Ontario on—
1:26 p.m.Official transcript
1:26 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
They engage, as I said, in the procurement process, with partners and interested market entrants to develop around the transit-oriented communities. As I said, I’m happy to have the deputy elaborate on some of the specifics—
1:26 p.m.Official transcript
1:26 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Ali Veshkini
In terms of the transit timelines, that is a question for the Ministry of Transportation, as well as Metrolinx. In terms of Mimico, right now, it is on pause as we’re working with the municipality as well as Metrolinx to determine how we move forward in terms of the actual site development. I believe in 2026, in the spring, there was a motion taken to council to adopt, to undertake this review and look at the risk assessment and work with the developers to determine how to move forward with the development.
1:27 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
Thank you. I appreciate that. That leads to the next one. One year after the Mimico transit-oriented community collapsed, the government selected Distrikt developments to build a TOC in Oakville that will include 11 skyscrapers. Is a final transit-oriented-community agreement in place with Distrikt or are the details still being negotiated?
1:28 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
As the deputy said, again, I’d refer some elements of that to the Ministry of Transportation and Metrolinx. What I would say with Oakville is, we’re working collaboratively with the community on expansion. The community has provided some vital feedback that has been instrumental—like a daycare, a community centre, things of that nature—as well as consortiums of people, consortiums of proponents to bring the station to life. It’s not one individual; rather, there’s a consortium involved in the TOC. As I said, we’re working very closely with Oakville and the community there to bring that site to life.
1:28 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
So there isn’t a final agreement in place? You said you’re working collaboratively with consortiums of proponents. But is a final TOC agreement in place with Distrikt?
1:29 p.m.Official transcript
1:29 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Ali Veshkini
Yes, there is an agreement in place with Distrikt. Currently, we’re looking at nearly 7,000 homes being unlocked and close to 400 jobs that that would stimulate. There is an anti-overshoot as well for the site. And we’re continuing to work with Distrikt and the city of Oakville to bring this project forward.
1:29 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
It turns out, though, that this particular developer has never built a high-rise before, and its president has been embroiled in financial and legal problems related to another development that had gone bankrupt. So after being burned by one bankrupt TOC partner, does it make sense for the ministry to select another TOC partner that, on top of being inexperienced, is also embroiled in bankruptcy proceedings?
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Well, again, I would say it is not us who selects those partners. It is done through a procurement process through Infrastructure Ontario. They assess financial health as an important component in looking at consortiums of players. I think a recognition that this government has, working in partnership with municipalities, is that proponents require—in this market, the reality is, not a lot is getting built, so you have to ask yourself, what are the some of the inhibiting factors to that? Are proponents putting credible cash flow up to bring a development to life? We have to look at those realities. As a government, we’ve tackled that—reducing development charges. We’ve brought forward measures with transit-oriented communities. We’re supplying vital infrastructure that brings these communities to life, to unlock these developments.
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
Earlier this year, the government issued four MZOs for certain properties around the Oakville site. MZOs used to be the exclusive domain of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. They employ land use planners and lawyers with the technical expertise to draft a zoning law; as far as I know, the Ministry of Infrastructure does not. My question is, who is it who drafts the MZOs for the Ministry of Infrastructure?
1:31 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Our officials, working in collaboration with MMAH and other partner ministries.
1:31 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
Has any of the language for the four Oakville MZOs been proposed by the developer?
1:31 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Again, when we put forward these measures to unlock development, we do it in consultation with the community—the Oakville community. We’ve received vital feedback for them. As for the specifics on the drafting, which ultimately comes up through partnerships with other ministries, I’d defer to the deputy to elaborate a little bit more on that process.
1:32 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Ali Veshkini
As the minister said, we work with MMAH as well as Infrastructure Ontario to draft them. As well, we have expert, third party legal and planners who help us with the drafting. The MZO will align with the agreement that we have with any TOC partner. So any MZO that we have aligns with an agreement of what is being built, and those are the towers and the heights that are contained within the MZO.
1:32 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
When I asked, did the developer propose the language for any of the four Oakville MZOs, it appeared you shook your head, but I don’t want to speak for you. So is that—
1:32 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Ali Veshkini
We do it in collaboration, based on the agreements that are provided.
1:32 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
Okay. I want to talk about the public’s confidence in the transit-oriented communities. Distrikt has a partner, the Remington Group, which owns property within the Oakville TOC area. Remington’s president, Christopher Bratty, happens to be close friends with the Premier and actually even attended his daughter’s wedding reception. Does the minister understand why the public might not have confidence in a TOC project where the development partner has no expertise in high-rises and its main qualification appears to be relationship-based?
1:33 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
I would say a few things. First, Chair, just to address the last comment: I would caution against putting any words in anyone’s mouth here, with respect to the questions being asked. I obviously defer to officials to provide additional context with respect to the transit-oriented communities. We’ve got a problem in Ontario with not enough houses getting built, so it’s imperative that we address the systemic barriers to getting those houses built—from vital housing-enabling infrastructure to working to expand public transit, to making sure we’re working with municipalities to reduce barriers like development charges, and to be responsive for various players within our respective communities. I know in my own community, for example, Stalwood Homes has provided vital feedback for the mayor, for all of us—
1:34 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
Thank you, Minister. I have limited time. I agree that there is a need for thoughtful planning and houses and homes and public transit, but I think that these are all decisions that should be based on public interest, public need, and I just worry about well-connected developers and their interests. So I’m glad to be reassured, and I will pay attention as we move forward. Earlier this year, the city of Toronto passed a motion to ask the provincial government for an outline of its risk assessment processes taken before entering into a transit-oriented community agreement. Did the ministry ever prepare this outline for the city of Toronto? If it was indeed prepared, can the committee have a copy?
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
To the member, through you, Chair: When engaging with transit-oriented communities, it’s important to ground ourselves in the programmatic aims to increase transit ridership, increase housing supply—
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
—stimulate the economy. We work very closely with our municipal partners to achieve the aims of bringing retail and community amenities—
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
—and public community spaces. The member referenced the vital need to bring things like community centres, daycares—
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
Thank you, Minister. MPP French, you’ve got a minute and 15 seconds.
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
I said the city of Toronto passed a motion to ask the provincial government for an outline of its risk assessment processes taken before entering into a TOC agreement. My question is very specific: Did this, indeed, get prepared by the ministry, and if so, can the committee have a copy? Was it prepared for the city of Toronto? Yes, not yet, or never?
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
As I said, we work very closely with our municipal partners when engaging in the TOC process.
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
As for some of the specifics on the back-and-forth, as I mentioned to you—
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
IO, Infrastructure Ontario, has robust policies in place to ensure responsible agreements are in place—
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
Ms. Jennifer K. French
I would be very pleased. I think I might get an answer in this case.
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Ali Veshkini
I don’t know, in terms of that specific motion—but I do know, working with the city manager and with the city, we talk about risk assessment on all the TOC projects. They can include risk assessments regarding enabling infrastructure timelines, integration risk. So, yes, we do talk about risk in terms of TOCs, as well as other projects with the city. I just can’t answer that specific question on that motion.
1:37 p.m.Official transcript
1:37 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
Thank you, Minister, for being here with your officials. I appreciate it. As you know, this is our first week back after 21 weeks in our communities. The budget motion was introduced 216 days ago and was approved 101 days ago. I’m glad that a day before the minister’s midyear update, we’re finally getting to estimates for your ministry. I appreciate that. Just before I begin with substantive questions—earlier, in response to MPP French, when you were discussing an RFP process or a competitive bidding process, you indicated that you’re not responsible for that, but IO is responsible for that. I just want to make sure that we’re on the same page. Ontario’s agencies and appointments directive 1.1 states: “The minister’s accountability for each provincial agency cannot be delegated.” So you agree that you have ministerial responsibility for Infrastructure Ontario as an agency?
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
I led my response in saying that when it comes to costs, when it comes to how agencies function, absolutely, as minister, I’m responsible for that. I think it’s important to note that agencies are overseen at arm’s length by a board—
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
You’re not working closely with the agency. You are ultimately responsible and accountable for the agency. That is the directive of your government. As long as we can agree on that, then I think we can have a productive conversation. Minister, I’m going to call your attention to vote 4003-02, which is on page 29 of the document. In there, the capital spending in the infrastructure policy, planning, and projects program is going to see a reduction of some $763.3 million from last year. This is the program that invests in and supports municipal infrastructure. I’m wondering, in a housing crisis, when your government is claiming to invest in infrastructure to support housing development, how is it possible that this program is decreasing by $763 million?
1:39 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Well, it’s not. We’ve invested over $3 billion to date, $4 billion in various municipal programs—
1:39 p.m.Official transcript
1:39 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Chair, I just would like a little time to respond, if that’s all right with you.
1:39 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
MPP Blais, do you want the minister to respond or do you want a more specific question?
1:40 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
Well, he said the dollar figure wasn’t going down; that’s how he led his answer. On page 29 of 69, it’s vote 4003-02. It’s going down from $1.497 billion last year to $733 million this year. So I’m wondering, in the context of a housing affordability crisis, when your government claims to be investing in infrastructure to accelerate housing construction, how can it be getting a 51% reduction in spending?
1:40 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Chair, if I may: As I was in the process of explaining, it’s a significant fund. We work with municipalities. As the member, I’m sure, can understand, the municipalities lead those projects, so those project timelines vary. The dollar figure towards the commitment has not changed. Project timelines vary. We have some municipalities—in my own community, for example, and other communities—that are coming forward and saying, “We actually have done this under cost and are looking at expanding ways to better deliver for the residents we serve.” We have some that approach us and say, “Costs, reality, supply chains etc. have resulted in cost overages.” So the actual fund itself—we will continue to ensure those dollars get out and support vital programs, but as the member, I’m sure, can understand, project timelines vary.
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
Project timelines do vary. Reducing investment by $763 million in a housing crisis is shocking to me. Minister, the city of Ottawa faces—
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
—anyone can go to page 29 of the document. And I understood that, accounting documents—if it’s in a bracket, that means a reduction or less, right? So you’ve got a bracket—$763,334,700 less this year compared to last year. It’s on page 29. I encourage you to take a look. The city of Ottawa—
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
In fairness, Madam Chair, that wasn’t a question. It was a statement.
1:42 p.m.Official transcript
1:42 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
Minister, the city of Ottawa is facing an $11-billion infrastructure shortfall over the next decade. As we saw with the July 1 floods, stormwater and sewer systems couldn’t cope with that record rainfall. Your government has failed to respond to the city’s requests for help with that particular emergency. I’m wondering, out of the infrastructure dollars you plan to spend in the upcoming year, how much of that is going to the city of Ottawa?
1:42 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Chair, MMAH, as the member knows, and as was asked today in question period, deals with the emergency response to specific municipalities. I know we’ve not only done that but established a Ministry of Emergency Preparedness that has ensured folks are on the ground—Ontario Corps—to be responsive to those sorts of needs. And we’ve increased our investments in Ottawa. In fact, I just toured the Ottawa Hospital the other day—
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
I wasn’t asking you about the emergency. I referenced it to articulate how old the infrastructure in Ottawa is and how desperately an infrastructure investment is needed. Given your claim about investment in municipal infrastructure and given the age of this infrastructure in Ottawa, I’m wondering if you could inform the committee and the residents of Ottawa about how much infrastructure money your government plans to give the city of Ottawa.
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Through you, Chair: These are application-based envelopes, so to presuppose exactly the amount—what I can say is, we’ve stepped up as a province. When that member was on council and systematically did not invest in the asset management and the important investments that we needed to make in the city, this province stepped up. This province stepped up to support the LRT—grossly mismanaged. This province stepped up to support hospital infrastructure so that folks can get better care closer to home. I recently had the opportunity to tour the Ottawa Hospital with their CEO, Cameron Love, the other day—
1:44 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
If you don’t know the answer, Minister, just say, “I don’t know the answer” or “We can’t provide the answer.” That’s the simplest way to answer the question. You just did a tour of the new Civic campus, and you were talking to Dr. Love. That’s fantastic. The original budget or the original estimate for the Civic hospital expansion was supposed to be $2.8 billion, which would have led to a local share of roughly $700 million. There has been recent public reporting that that estimate now may exceed $5 billion, approaching $7 billion. In fact, I believe last week at the building and trade conference in Ottawa, where the Premier spoke, after the Premier’s speech, the moderator addressed the convention and thanked the Premier for $15 billion for the Ottawa Hospital expansion, which, if correct, would be something like a 435% increase in project costs. So I’m wondering if you can confirm what the cost of the Ottawa Hospital expansion will be.
1:45 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
First off, Chair, I don’t want to presuppose what other folks said at conferences. But I can tell you what an incredible response the Premier had from building trades, unionized members who unequivocally support the direction of this government, because we’re making investments that put their members to work. When they see Premier Ford and they see this government—
1:45 p.m.Official transcript
1:45 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
—they see incredible investments that are being made to put their members to work—
1:45 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
What is the cost of the Ottawa Hospital project? The Civic hospital project at Dow’s Lake—how much is it going to cost?
1:46 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Again, through you, Chair: On an investment just shy of $10 billion towards the hospital, we have—it is on track, on time and on budget—
1:46 p.m.Official transcript
1:46 p.m.Official transcript
1:46 p.m.Official transcript
Mr. Stephen Blais
Fair enough. Minister, you gave the answer: just shy of $10 billion. If that’s the answer, that’s the answer. The original estimate was $2.8 billion. If it’s just shy of $10 billion—let’s round it up to $10 billion, just to make the math easier. That will mean the local share—this is the share that is required to be fund-raised in the community or levied through an additional tax by the city of Ottawa or gained some other way—will go from $700 million to, let’s call it, roughly $2.25 billion to $2.5 billion. That is a significant increase. Ottawa is not the same market as Toronto. We don’t have the same corporate business community that the city of Toronto has. That will require an enormous effort to raise. The foundation has raised about $400 million towards its original $500-million goal, which was already going to be leaving the city of Ottawa to try to come up with $200 million. Now it looks like they’re going to have to come up with close to $2 billion in the local share. I’m wondering how you can account for that.
1:47 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
Through you, Chair: First and foremost, I find it troubling that we almost have a member advocating for less funding for their own community—
1:47 p.m.Official transcript
1:47 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. David Piccini
—to vital investments in their community. I think to understand some of the nuance around that, in particular, relative to development charge fees, relative to a number of the municipally imposed fees, it would require walking the site. As the leadership said there—and members—they have not seen that member there recently to actually dig deep into understanding the nuance around some of those costs. When you impose those fees, the relative fee—