Legislative Assembly of Ontario · Committee

Tuesday, January 27, 2026

Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs

The official transcript of the meeting, from Hansard, by heading. Ministers, officials and witnesses appear as the transcript names them; committees have no live transcript, so the record appears once the Assembly publishes it.

Read from the beginning of the meeting

Meeting ended

Progress Place; Ms. Nina Deeb; PTX Metals Inc.

04:15:41Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

Thank you very much. I just had two final points. One was to reinforce, for those not that familiar with the mining sector, just how important it is today to say defence manufacturing, AI data centres—all of these things are increasing demand for power, infrastructure and materials, and that’s compounding, while at the same time, the supplies globally are decreasing. So it’s a very good opportunity financially. And then I just wanted to reinforce that PTX is an Ontario-based company. All the management is based here, and all the capital we raise is invested here. And the future really depends on getting these projects built in Ontario.

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04:16:38Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

Again, some of the other foreign companies that are operating these projects offshore—and we’re based here in Ontario. That was the end of the final remarks.

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04:16:52Official transcript

Mr. Joseph Racinsky

Thank you. We might get cut off here—but last year, our government started the “one project, one process” framework, with the idea of reducing the project timelines by 50%. We had the longest timeline in the G7 to get a mine: up to 15 years. What kind of impact would that have for your business?

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04:17:17Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

Well, that’s certainly very positive. That’s more for the projects that are at that construction decision—like my former employer, where they’re about to build the mine. The stage I’m talking about is a bit earlier, where we’re getting the drilling and engineering ready to determine if we have a mine. So it won’t have a huge impact on that stage. It’s sort of pre-construction decision, and you’ve got—

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04:17:52Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. He was right; you’re going to have to finish with that one. MPP Vanthof.

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04:18:00Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you to all the presenters on very varied issues. I’m going to go to Greg first. I’m the MPP for Timiskaming–Cochrane. Kirkland Lake, Cobalt—we are very familiar with mining and proud of the mining regulations we have in Ontario. We’ve gone a long way from Cobalt, to where we are now. And you mentioned that—we have strengthened regulations. We don’t often hear from the pre-development—you’re pre-development, right?

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04:18:39Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

I hear lots of times from prospectors. Pre-development isn’t where the big money—so once you’ve got the reserve there, and the majors have the money to do consultation, right?

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04:18:57Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

Yes, exactly. We don’t have cash flow; we rely on investment, through the stock market, mainly. Our goal is to get these projects ready for the majors to go build them. So we get all that permitting and the relationship-building with the communities, we get that resource drilled off, we confirm the economics and the recoveries. Then, essentially, these larger companies would often acquire these. We’re essentially doing a lot of the work for these bigger companies externally, instead of doing it in-house.

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04:19:41Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

So if you determine an area is feasible to go look, you do the survey of which First Nations are—how does that process start? Do you go to the government? Do you go to the First Nations? Who do you go to first?

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04:20:00Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

This project benefits from some historical work by two really good past producers, Inco and FNX. We’re updating all that information, and we’re expanding the size of the project to make sure it’s economic. When we apply for a permit to do this drilling, for example, the government of Ontario, the mines and energy division, tells us what communities we’re required to work with, and then I try to get them involved in employment, in training. There’s a number of them from Webequie, for example, working with us in the field now. We try to buy their supplies as well. But then there’s still a lengthy process for consulting with them—getting agreements in place; training; traditional knowledge studies, for example; advisers they want to hire. That comes on us to get that done.

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04:21:02Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

There are two things we’re looking for today. There is an existing fund where the First Nations can apply to get consultation fees, but it isn’t large enough. We think the industry should be able to also take funds from that existing fund, for us to cover the cost. It also reduces the work for the government, takes that burden off them. We’re the ones who are working with the communities in the field, so we should be doing it. I also want to investigate the cost to convert that existing road into a logging road, which would link two First Nations together. It would be good for them socially, but it also would reduce my costs by about 60% if we could drive to the project—less helicopter, less fuel—and we could get this project developed quicker and then, hopefully, in the hands of a larger Canadian producer.

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04:22:04Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

And the two First Nations would be in agreement with this road?

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04:22:08Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

Well, that’s what the funding today is for. Two parts—the consultation, the traditional knowledge they want to get done, but also we would have to sit down with an engineer firm, understand the cost, the time to get it done, and then obviously get their consent and support for it.

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04:22:30Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Part of the problem—I’m just going from personal experience, as an MPP. Some “pre-development” companies aren’t as good at consultation as others, and that also runs into problems.

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04:22:44Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Everyone gets tainted with the same brush. Have you run into that?

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04:22:49Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

I think today it’s really taken seriously by all exploration companies. I can tell you, we take it very seriously. We have some very good experts who work with us. Like I said, with Goliath—I take the same approach. We were building a mine. In this case, we’re just looking for exploration. I’d say the one thing that’s a bit of a challenge is it’s quite different in each region of Ontario, how the First Nations want to—the time and their involvement or knowledge. Some of them are very knowledgeable on mining—like Timmins or Sudbury—and some of them in the north are less knowledgeable, so it just takes more education, more relationship-building.

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04:23:39Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thank you for your presentations today. My name is Lee Fairclough. I am a newly elected MPP in Etobicoke–Lakeshore. I’m finding as I come on these budget consultations that I’m learning a lot about our province. I want to start with you, Greg. I’m really intrigued by your request today around the consultations and requesting some of the funds to support it. If you reflect on your previous projects, do you have examples that were very successful in the way that you could achieve that consultation? Is something different now—that you’re feeling that you need to be requesting the dollars to support this from the government?

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04:24:26Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

That’s a good question. I can speak about the last project, which was in Dryden. I’d say the sophistication and knowledge about mining in that region, compared to somewhere like Red Lake or Sudbury, was lower. It definitely took two to three years of just relationship-building with the council, the elders, getting knowledge about the communities and presenting in the communities. As you can imagine, within these communities there are often different levels of knowledge or different interest levels—some are for, some are against. So I think patience was the way that we finally got the mining permit done. I know the government was very comfortable with all the other environmental mine designs that we had done, the engineering firms had done. But the one thing they really wanted to be comfortable with was that the First Nations were supportive and engaged and updated. I think that was the success from that one—just taking our time, not rushing it. It took probably two to three years to get that environmental assessment done. In this region, they see that there’s significant economic potential in the Ring of Fire, so I think they’re quite interested in that. There’s not a lot of other industry. So, again, I’m taking the same approach. We don’t rush the consultation. We take it very seriously. We work hard to get the meetings, and when we do get the meetings, we’re very respectful. For example, we do have a good relationship with Webequie. They’re a lot more engaged. We sponsor their women’s curling. We make sure that leadership events are sponsored by us, and we buy a lot of services from the community—food, hotels, drilling services. I think that gets back to the other communities—that we’re very good to work with and we’re patient. I think that’s the only way to work with these communities.

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04:26:43Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thanks for that. I’ll go next to Progress Place. Thank you very much for your presentation as well. I’m interested to learn a little bit more about the services that you’re providing. Secondly, some of the numbers that you have quoted about the potential hospital avoidance, I think, are pretty significant. Can you talk to me a little bit about the nature of the services that are allowing for that avoidance of visits to hospitals?

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04:27:16Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

Thank you for the question. We’ve done a lot of research with TMU and U of T, and we have papers that have acknowledged the cost savings. I’ve worked here at the Clubhouse at Progress Place for over 40 years, in many different roles. I would think that the model in itself is very unique. It really addresses people where they’re at, and it’s very open-ended. People can come as often as they want. They work on their goals. It’s very person-centred. And we work very hard at building this sense of community.

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04:27:55Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

In terms of statistics, we have a lot of documentation and research articles that back the numbers that I provided.

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04:28:04Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Are there clinical interventions that are provided at your organization?

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04:28:09Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

We’re all social workers, so we’re not doctors or nurses. However, we work very closely with hospitals and doctors and any medical institutions. We’re able, quite often, to even defer—because we see people so often and we’re open seven days a week, we’re able to intervene. We get to know people very well and quite often can—

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04:28:34Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you. That does conclude the time for that question. We now will go to MPP Saunderson.

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04:28:41Official transcript

Mr. Brian Saunderson

I want to thank the panel for being here today and sharing your thoughts on the upcoming budget and for the work you do in our communities. Greg, I’m going to focus on you to start with. My riding of Simcoe–Grey has Honda in it. It also has MacLean Engineering and a number of services and suppliers that rely on minerals and materials that come from the ground. Of course, we have, in the Ring of Fire, a huge opportunity to create a very complete circular economy within Ontario itself. The process that you’re talking about is the early exploration, I gather—so, really, the “one project, one process” doesn’t capture you. We understand that it’s about 15 years to get a mine into production, and we’re trying to reduce that dramatically, to get it down to about seven and a half or less, as they do in Australia and New Zealand, so we can be competitive internationally. What portion of that 15 years does the early assessment, the process that you’re involved in, take up? Is it in part of that 15 years, or is it in addition to that 15 years?

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04:30:00Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

That’s a great question, actually. What I find with these mining projects is, if it’s a greenfield discovery, meaning it never had exploration before, that probably wouldn’t be included in that 15-year period. In the case of something like this, where there has been a significant amount of money and time invested by past operators—because they were quite good, the Canadian companies, of always having a pipeline of companies—we probably could be included in that 15-year period. In our case, it’s quite a unique opportunity, because you’ve also got Eagle’s Nest, and then you’ve got capacity at Sudbury, and you do have infrastructure reasonably nearby, like rail lines. What the Ring of Fire needs to do is, it needs to develop a concentrator to produce the local ore. There are really two big projects: W2 and Eagle’s Nest. That would be about a five-year period to probably get those two projects, including ours, up and running, and that concentrator built. Because the projects had a lot of historical work, I think we would be included in that 15-year, even though we haven’t yet done—so our next big step would be resource-feasibility-type work, and then we get into the mine permitting. Hopefully, that answers your question.

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04:31:30Official transcript

Mr. Brian Saunderson

It does a little. I think I took from your earlier comments that you were talking about the level of sophistication, familiarity and comfort with the mining sector in the area that’s going to be hosting the mine. So the three areas that you’ve just referenced—how would you rate their familiarity with the sector?

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04:31:56Official transcript

Mr. Brian Saunderson

Just the sophistication of the populations you’re dealing with. You’ve been saying it depends whether it’s new to the area or it’s something they’ve experienced before.

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04:32:08Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

Yes, that’s a good question. It really varies in Ontario. That’s why I think the Ring of Fire is quite unique—because it isn’t really that remote. You do have two big mining towns like Pickle Lake and Thunder Bay, for example—or even Cochrane isn’t that far, really. So there’s a lot of sophistication—universities, mining engineering services; so much of those economies make money off mining. Even when I look at what we’re paying in the field just doing drilling, just renting Ski-Doos; helicopters or fuel—there’s a lot of knowledge in the region for that type of services is my point. So the Ring of Fire can adapt quite quickly to providing those services. I would say, within the First Nations communities, the knowledge is low in that region, but outside, in the cities—in Pickle Lake and Thunder Bay, for example—the knowledge is very high on mining. The comparison would be that the knowledge of banking on Bay Street is obviously very high compared to other parts of Canada. The knowledge of mining in these regions is equally as high.

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04:33:25Official transcript

Mr. Brian Saunderson

When you were talking, you gave one example of—I think it took three years for the process to go through and the consultation to get to a point that you were comfortable with.

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04:33:38Official transcript

Mr. Brian Saunderson

We want to see that we make this process as quick as possible, but we also want to see it be collaborative with the community. We heard earlier today from the Métis Nation of Ontario about their role in the consultation process. It’s an important topic, and those relationships are going to be necessary to see the project through successfully. That’s a long-winded question. I don’t know if you have a lot of time. I’m wondering if there’s a way that you think the pre- or early assessment process could be incorporated in the one-permit process—or there could be a similar process established for that, to try to streamline it, but to make sure that we’re going through all the proper steps.

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04:34:29Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

Yes, it could definitely be a streamlining, because I think it would benefit—you have to look at it like two areas. You’ve got the exploration and then the builders. So you could have one streamlined system. I think it would remove a lot of the delays and paperwork, if it was integrated—because as you move through, from resource to construction decision, then the communities would be involved early in the process. A lot of the work we’re doing right now is very similar to what we’re doing to build a mine, although—

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04:35:08Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That concludes the time. MPP Vanthof.

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04:35:12Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

I have one more question for Greg. That’s a really good analogy. Bay Street knows a lot more than many parts of Toronto about financing—and mining, it’s the same thing. In my part of the world, Alamos Gold announced that their fourth-quarter income was down because of storms and road closures. You’re a big player in the Ring of Fire. The Ring of Fire ends up on Highway 11/17. I know I’m putting you on the spot, but is that highway system sufficient to actually support the Ring of Fire?

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04:35:48Official transcript

Mr. Greg Ferron

Well, right now, at least from where I sit, I’m just trying to get the internal resource developed. That’s probably a better question for the guys who want to develop Eagle’s Nest. The winter roads that run down to Pickle Lake, to the road you’re referring to—it’s a very short distance to Webequie and to W2. As you know, they have received funding to investigate—creating those all-seasons roads. That, to me, would be the smartest way into the Ring of Fire, because it’s a much shorter distance—you’re getting to an existing highway; you can still get down to the rail line. I don’t know, though, if the existing roads could support mining trucks. That would have to be investigated.

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04:36:38Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Thanks a lot. I would like to go to Cristina from Progress Place. I think I understand the model for the places in Toronto. You talk to the people frequently. Could you explain the Warm Line more? If someone here contacts the Warm Line, what would be their next step? I’m having a hard time with that.

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04:37:00Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

Quite often, people are calling because they are isolated; they’re lonely. They might not have anyone to talk to. Just having someone who has lived experience and can relate to what they’re sharing is often sufficient to get someone through the evening, the holiday, the weekend. In terms of resources, we’re very fortunate, because we work with adults—so a lot of times, we’re training people to ask, “What has worked before? What resources do you have?” When people are anxious, in a bit of disarray, they forget to utilize their strengths and their abilities to move forward. Having someone who is calm and able to speak with them, remind them of the resources they currently use, and ask them, “What steps can we confirm that you will take on Monday”—or whatever; the next day—“to be able to get further supports?” is usually sufficient, to be honest.

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04:38:03Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

I appreciate that. I still have a hard time having—and I’m not criticizing at all; I want to understand this. I spend six months a year in Toronto and six months a year where I live in northern Ontario, and the atmosphere, the surroundings in Toronto, are totally different. If your person on the hotline is going to ask, “Where are you going to go on Monday to access services?”—in many cases, there is nothing to access. So I’m just having a hard time—I’m not saying it’s not a good idea. In your experience, how does it relate to other parts of the country?

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04:38:44Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

Most people would have ability to access a family doctor—or we are available every day of the year, so people can call back the next day if they’re needing additional support. It depends on, I guess—

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04:39:00Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

—is it a real referral that is needed or is it just ongoing support? We are open every day of the year.

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04:39:09Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

I’m going to come back to you as well, Cristina. I should mention that I’m the Liberal caucus lead for hospitals, mental health, addictions and homelessness, so I’m interested in what you’re seeing at Progress Place. We know that one in four Canadians are impacted by mental illness or mental health concerns, and we know that addressing that early for young people, especially, before the age of 40, can make a huge difference to their outcomes. In terms of the number of people who are accessing Progress Place—have you seen an increase in those numbers? Secondly, what are you seeing around some of the underlying causes of some of the mental health challenges that people are experiencing?

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04:40:00Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

Well, on a positive note, because I’ve been in the system for so long, I can say that young adults aren’t as institutionalized as they once were. I think that’s a credit to better medications; not labelling or diagnosing people as soon as they have their first episode. Stigma has also played a big role. Families understand better; they’re more involved. So that’s the positive. Quite often, people’s lives are interrupted, and it could be—with the pandemic, everything really changed. A lot of people, I feel, experienced all kinds of anxiety, depression. And whether it’s clinically diagnosed, I’m not sure—but anyone who feels that they need that support, I believe, deserves it. If it avoids the chronic persistence of a long-term mental illness, then that’s even better. If you’re able to teach people the tools to be able to move forward in life early, then that’s even better—in terms of being stuck in the system, so to speak. I’m not sure if I’ve answered your whole question.

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04:41:36Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

You have. Just from a pure quantitative perspective, have you served more people at Progress Place, say, this year than last year, than the year before? Are you seeing the numbers continuously rise? What are the numbers of people you would see in your main programming each year?

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04:42:04Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

The numbers always are increasing by probably 200 to 300 every year. We don’t have wait-lists, and part of that is because we are open seven days a week, from 8 in the morning until 7 at night, and people can come and go when they want. We really pull on the talents of other peers to support peers as well—not just that the staff do it. That’s a huge support as well. It also empowers people to give back and learn how to be a good—it teaches people connection, the importance of supporting one another and looking out for one another, and it really adds. That is a huge component of building community within our environment.

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04:43:06Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

I’ll just ask about the Warm Line as well. I’ve been very familiar with 988 and some of the other services. You’re clearly saying that it’s not a crisis line per se. What would be the numbers that would be calling for that line currently—just given the ask that you’ve made today?

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04:43:34Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

Well, 20,000 last year, but that was because we got an additional $100,000 in January. Typically, our budget is only $110,000, so with that amount, we usually do 10,000 calls. With the added $100,000, we were able to pull off 20,000, with the additional amounts of calls, emails and texts. We’re asking, really, to double everything because, like I said, the phones and the emails and texts are off the hook.

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04:44:17Official transcript

Ms. Criss Habal

We feel that we could do 40,000, I guess is what I’m saying.

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04:44:23Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

That’s great. Thanks very much for your presentation today.

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04:44:29Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That concludes that question, and it concludes this panel. Thank you to all the panellists for a great job of preparing and being here to help us with our consultations. We look forward to using all that to write our report. Thank you very much for being here. We’ll be back in five minutes.

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Ontario Parents for Education Support; Canadian Mental Health Association, Cochrane-Timiskaming; Dominion Dynamics

04:53:02Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

We’ll call the committee back to order. Our next panel is Ontario Parents for Education Support; Canadian Mental Health Association, Cochrane-Timiskaming; and Dominion Dynamics—the first and third are virtual. I just want to make note here that the presentation is seven minutes, and at six minutes I will say, “One minute.” Don’t stop, because you’ll still have one minute. When I say thank you, stop, because it’s over. That’s for everyone. With that, we will start with Ontario Parents for Education Support.

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04:53:34Official transcript

Ms. Julia Evangelisto

My name is Julia Evangelisto. I am here as a parent of children with disability and as co-founder of Ontario Parents for Education Support. We are a non-partisan, grassroots parent organization representing families across the province. Our children rely on special education services to meet their basic right to learn. Today, we are asking this committee to increase investment in public education, with a targeted focus on the special education budget. Our children cannot succeed in school without deliberate, adequately staffed support. Success is measured by whether our children can attend a full day of school, have meaningful participation and consistent support from qualified staff. Right now, provincial education policy is failing to create those conditions. Inclusion without staffing, without smaller class sizes and without specialized instruction and mental health support is not inclusion; it is neglect. Inclusion is meant to ensure that children with disabilities have real access to learning and dignity alongside their peers. That only happens when classrooms have low staff-to-student ratios that reflect student need and specialized supports are present, including educational assistants, behavioural specialists and other professionals, who help ensure students’ needs and disabilities are meaningfully considered into their education. A 2025 report from Community Living Ontario found that approximately 20% of students with disabilities are attending school on a modified or shortened day, not because it benefits the child, but because there are not enough qualified staff available. A parent from Waterloo shared, “My son’s school shortened his day to just three hours because there was not enough EA support for the full day. This happened without our consent, and we were told it is out of their hands. This has contributed to a mental health crisis for our son.” From a parent’s perspective, these numbers are alarming, because behind every statistic is a child losing their education. A 2025 report from the Ontario Public School Boards’ Association found that boards across Ontario spend about $582 million more on special education than they receive from the ministry, helping explain why families are told that the staffing and support their children need aren’t available. Under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, there is a clear duty to accommodate persons with disabilities so they can access public education on an equal basis. When staffing and conditions fall short, children are left without the support they need—an outcome parents experience as neglect. There has been a lot of talk lately about student violence. As more students with complex support needs are integrated into regular classrooms without a corresponding increase in qualified staff presence, situations escalate that could have been prevented. Reports from People for Education and Community Living Ontario show that classrooms are increasingly being evacuated, staff and students are being injured, and mental health and behavioural supports are insufficient to respond, leaving schools in constant crisis mode rather than focused on learning. A parent from Guelph shared, “My son’s EA time was cut drastically. He’s in grade 6 and still can’t read and write. As his learning needs went unmet, he began disrupting the class and even hurt other students. He wasn’t acting out; he was overwhelmed and unable to access his learning.” These are not acts of intentional harm, but children responding to environments that did not take their needs into account. When these moments are labelled as “violence,” blame lands on the children instead of the policy decisions that created the conditions they were placed in. I want to speak briefly about two children, Max and Landyn. Max was a seven-year-old child with disabilities from Hamilton. His school day was reduced to a modified half-day, because the necessary staffing was not available for the full day. His family raised concerns about safety and access, but the staffing required to allow him to attend a full day was never restored at the time of his death. Landyn was a 16-year-old student with disabilities who was left unsupervised and found unresponsive in a sensory room at his Trenton high school. His family had raised clear concerns about supervision and safety in advance, but those concerns were never resolved in time. Their families were asking for qualified staff, appropriate supervision and conditions that would allow their children to be safe and supported at school. When warnings are raised again and again without action, this is not a breakdown between families and schools, or schools and boards; it is a failure of government policy to respond to clearly identified needs, leaving children without the support they require to keep them safe. Honouring Max and Landyn means listening to parents before harm occurs. When children have access to qualified staff, small class sizes, and mental health and special education support services, they are more likely to complete school, develop independence, and move into meaningful employment and community life. This investment also matters for the adults working in schools—reducing staff injuries, medical leaves and burnout, while creating safer, effective and inclusive learning conditions for all students.

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04:59:06Official transcript

Ms. Julia Evangelisto

Early investment reduces crisis responses, exclusions, emergency interventions, and long-term resilience on social and health systems. It is a responsible and cost-effective use of public funds. And the responsibility for those conditions rests at the ministry level. Parents are asking for three clear actions. First, increase investment in special education supports, including educational assistants and specialized classes that meet children’s needs when those needs are identified, not years later. Second, increase budget capacity for smaller classes and establish low staff-to-student ratios for all students, so children with complex needs can learn and participate in environments that work for them, and so that every child benefits from [inaudible]. Third, make dedicated budget commitments to mental health supports for all students and make early—

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05:00:00Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That concludes the time. We apologize for having to do that. Hopefully you can get the rest in in the question period. Our next presenter is Canadian Mental Health Association, Cochrane-Timiskaming. The floor is yours.

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05:00:11Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

Thank you for the opportunity to address this committee. My name is Paul Jalbert. I’m the executive director with CMHA, the Canadian Mental Health Association, Cochrane-Timiskaming branch. CMHA Cochrane-Timiskaming provides mental health and addiction services in the Cochrane and Timiskaming districts, with service sites in Timmins, Cochrane, New Liskeard, Kirkland Lake, Iroquois Falls, and Matheson. I’ll start off today by thanking the provincial government for showing their commitment to community mental health and addiction care by providing our sector with a 4% base budget increase last year. This increase will help our sector manage rising day-to-day operating costs, including inflation and essential wage adjustments, which will also help us retain the dedicated staff we have the good fortune of working with. With that, we must also acknowledge that we continue to face headwinds, particularly here in the north, and without sustainable and predictable investments we will miss our opportunity to reap the greatest return on our investments. The enduring issue facing government is how to ensure economic productivity in a fiscally constrained environment. This is one place where our needs as a community mental health and addiction service provider intersect with the province’s reality and with the community’s objective of diminishing health disparities here in the north. As a publicly funded service provider, we have a vested interest in seeing two things happen: maximize productivity growth, as it is the only sustainable way to fund public services in the long term; and maximize the return on investment for the investment made in our sector. Starting with the first: We know that northern Ontario is a materially important economic region in Ontario, contributing an estimated $34.6 billion in annual GDP—that’s approximately 4% of the provincial total—while accounting for about 5% of Ontario’s population. Substance-related harms in northern Ontario intersect with the region’s economic structure. Analyses of opioid-related deaths show that compared to the rest of Ontario, higher proportions of opioid-related deaths in northern Ontario occurred among individuals employed in mining, quarrying, oil and gas extraction, and the construction industries. Provincial system performance reporting has documented that residents of northern Ontario face lower rates of attachment to primary care, longer wait times for primary and specialist services, and greater reliance on emergency departments when timely care is unavailable. This isn’t exactly a postcard to come live and work in our area. When northern Ontario has such a critical role as an economic driver in natural resources, mining, exports and critical mineral development, communities must be able to house, support and care for the workforce required to deliver these projects. For that reason, social infrastructure should be viewed as economic infrastructure. Now to our second point, concerning maximizing return on investment: There are long-standing gaps in housing and support infrastructure in the north, which cause homelessness to rise at a faster rate in northern Ontario than the rest of the province. New municipal data recently revealed that homelessness in northern Ontario has increased 37% in the last year, compared to 8% provincially. This has placed unprecedented strain on our emergency departments, our shelters, our hospitals, our correction facilities, all of which are at high cost and ill-suited for long-term recovery and stabilization. Mental health emergency department visits in northern Ontario occur at two to four times the provincial average. Cost and performance data from across the province shows that community-based mental health and addiction services achieve stronger outcomes and lower system costs when aligned with housing and primary care. For example, the return on investment for assertive community treatment teams is $2.40 for every dollar invested. Assertive community treatment teams essentially were envisioned as a hospital without walls in communities, to support some of the most complex clients we have. Where the province has shown its commitment to capital funding to build supportive housing units, it has lacked the same financial commitment to fund the accompanying mental health and addiction supports. This is where we can co-operate to really maximize the return on investment. For every dollar invested in supportive housing programs, the system saves up to $3 in reduced use of hospitals, shelters and correction facilities. A month in supportive housing costs—we’re looking at somewhere under $4,000; a shelter for a month is $6,000; jail is $12,000; in a hospital, it climbs up to nearly $30,000 per month. For all of these reasons, we urge the government to maintain momentum this year and provide another round of stabilization funding for the community mental health and addictions sector. And if we need more reason to invest, northern Ontario is reporting as having the highest rates of potential years of life lost in the province, indicating elevated levels of premature and avoidable mortality. Simply put, we die sooner. It’s not random. It’s not genetics. It’s linked to our lack of health care—it’s fewer health services; ist’s longer wait times, higher rates of chronic disease, more poverty, lack of transportation infrastructure, and most importantly in this context, limited access to addiction and mental health services.

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05:04:31Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

So the community mental health and addiction centre needs another 4% base budget increase for the next fiscal year. This will allow us to provide competitive compensation and fill up to 200 vacant roles across our branch network, which will in turn serve an additional 8,000 Ontarians with mental health and addictions services. It will ensure quality service is maintained; that we retain skilled professionals in our sector, who can continue to support our community and municipal partners; and improve outcomes for individuals in our community, while also being the fiscally responsible investment for government. You will see the return on investment through reduced emergency service costs, long-term sustained housing placements, and, overall, healthier communities. Together, we can bridge that gap between the health outcomes for northern Ontario and our partners in the rest of the province. Thanks a lot for listening to me. I will be happy to take your questions.

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05:05:17Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much for the presentation. The next presentation is Dominion Dynamics—and it’s virtual.

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05:05:22Official transcript

Mr. Eliot Pence

Chair and members of the committee, thank you for having me. My name is Eliot Pence. I grew up in Victoria, BC, and I have spent my career building defence companies. Most recently, I helped scale Anduril Industries into one of the most influential defence technology companies in the world, before coming home to start Dominion Dynamics. We’re a Canadian company based in Ontario, focused on the north. We build rugged systems for challenging places, like the Arctic. Let me put my ask on the table right away. We don’t need lungs; we need purchase orders—contracts—small ones to start. Vast ones—we will earn the big ones. We just closed a $21-million seed round with major Canadian and US investors, including the BC pension manager, BCI. It’s the largest defence investment at this stage in Canadian history. We’re opening up a 25,000-square-foot factory in Kanata in March, and a development office in Toronto. We’ll start with dozens of hires, and as we scale, we expect that to grow into the hundreds by the end of this year or early next. Private capital is moving, because the need is obvious and the market is here in Canada. But we need your government, along with the other provincial and municipal police forces, to buy our technologies. Auranet—which is what we build—is a network of rugged northern sensors that share data in real time. Think of it as an always-on tripwire for the Arctic and the Far North of Ontario. We also build an autonomous wingman aircraft—a drone designed to fly alongside fighter jets or on its own, taking the risky jobs so people don’t have to. And we have designed and deployed the software that ties all of this together in allied systems. We’ve run field trials in northern Ontario, and we’re deployed in the Yukon today, but we should be deployed here too. Ontario is an Arctic province, whether we use the language or not. The province has nearly 1,300 kilometres of Arctic shoreline on Hudson Bay and James Bay. In a time when Arctic sovereignty is a top priority, Ontario’s coastline is a tremendous opportunity, but also a responsibility. Across northern Ontario, there are roughly 200 unmanaged or lightly managed airstrips. They are lifelines for medical evacuations and shipments of food and fuel, but they can also be targets for trafficking or other illicit activity if no one is watching. Our technology can watch, quietly and affordably, and they can queue a response only when there’s something to respond to. Recently, Dominion Dynamics has spent some time with a community in Peawanuck, on the Winisk River, just south of the Hudson Bay. This is one of the northernmost communities in Ontario. Community leaders talked about the unidentified drones and strange, unidentified aerial traffic. Sometimes it could just be prospectors with the drones, sometimes not. Just like during the Chinese weather balloon episode in 2023, there are unidentified objects in the skies over Ontario. Leaders in Peawanuck and other northern communities are asking a simple question: Can we know, in real time, what’s over our heads and using northern airstrips at night? We’ve been working with them to track and identify those objects. Ontario can help by treating communities like Peawanuck as early adopters of our technology, but of Canadian-owned and Canadian-controlled technology. That same logic applies across the province. The OPP and regional police can use Auranet for airstrip and perimeter monitoring, share intelligence about unmanned aircraft systems and augment the drone programs they already run; wildfire management can treat Auranet as a standing tripwire for heat, smoke and movement, with small aircraft for confirmation; and at remote aerodromes we can log traffic, flag unauthorized night ops and provide video and telemetry when something isn’t right. So what do we need from Ontario, practically? Start with a pilot order, an investment in Auranet nodes across a handful of priority sites, like airstrips and critical infrastructure. Put clear performance milestones in the contract; when we hit them, expand. Second, create a fast lane for testing and contracting technology. The federal government is moving toward a defence industrial strategy that emphasizes speed and technology that is Canadian-owned and controlled. Ontario can build its own provincial strategy that nests into that and focuses on provincial security and emergency response. Third, protect the IP we’re building here. Loans are great for working capital, but companies that are building world-changing IP need a better contracting environment. We need to keep Ontario-created IP in Ontario; that’s how you build the defence industrial cluster in this province. Canada is finally investing in the things we’ve talked about for over three decades. Private capital, including institutional investors, are now backing early defence companies here. Dominion is one of them, but there are several others that are also getting funded. The question for Ontario is simple: Do those dollars turn into Ontario manufacturing, Ontario IP and Ontario missions, or do promising firms move production and patents south because contracting is faster? Ontario’s 2026 budget is a chance to answer that—not with another program for next year, but with a first purchase order this spring and a clear provincial policy that says that Ontario is an Arctic gateway and we will field useful capability at speed. I’ll end where I began: with the ask. Give us a small, fast contract. Let’s prove the tech Ontario missions this spring and scale what works. And let’s start speaking plainly about who we are: Ontario is an Arctic coastline; it is an Arctic province. Let’s start acting like it and building the capacity to keep people safe in a harder world. Dominion Dynamics is ready to do our part. Thank you. I’m happy to take your questions.

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05:10:00Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much for your presentation. We will start the first round of questions with the official opposition. MPP Vanthof.

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05:10:17Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

My first question will go to the Canadian Mental Health Association. Hey, Paul. How are you doing? You listed some pretty sobering statistics, including that we have a shorter lifespan. What came to my mind is, basically, we’re still a colony, in northern Ontario. We’re great to get stuff out of, great to get gold, great to get silver, great to get to the Ring of Fire and great to make money, like if you’re working in a mine or working—and I’m not trying to be partisan. Successive governments have not lived up to providing the similar services or equivalent services to other parts of Ontario. How many positions do you have right now that are unfilled?

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05:11:49Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

Across the province, we’re looking at somewhere around 200.

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05:12:00Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

We’ve been fortunate here that we’ve been able to sustain ourselves, but that is going to be very difficult in the coming fiscal year, and the following one after that is when we’ll have to make some challenging decisions.

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05:12:30Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Statistically and anecdotally, we see homelessness coming up. What, in your opinion, do we realistically do to combat that?

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05:12:46Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

It’s a really good question. Even if we did everything right right now, we still won’t turn the corner on this for several years; that’s even if we start today, pitching perfect baseball. There are really three prongs to this—and I’m really speaking to the report that came out this month in regard to homelessness in the north. There’s a component around the bricks and mortar and deeply affordable housing—just access to it. Our stock is aging. It needs repairs. There isn’t enough of it. So we need some stock. We need to build. The second is, in order to support individuals to live independently as best as we can—there is a proportion of individuals who need supports that we offer, and we need operational dollars to connect to those folks to decrease that. The third would be prevention. There are ways for us to support individuals who are currently housed not to get into homelessness. For example, rent arrears—it’s a lot easier for us to get into a negotiation and support a client if we can get ahead of rent arrears with the landlord, rather than having them having to go through the homelessness system to get rehoused. Let’s do the prevention component—prevention building. I’ll spend a little time on the operations piece. The operation is really where you maximize your return on investment. In that report that was provided earlier this month around protecting northern Ontario, there are three simulations that we were proposed, and clearly, when mental health and addiction services are integrated with housing and primary care, that’s where you get your return on investment. We see some of this work happen in other parts of the province. I’ll give you an example: We see the province maximizing the scope of practice of professionals. We see pharmacists who have greater scope of practice now, and nurses have greater scope of practice. That’s really to protect those most intensive services and protect people from needing more health care. That’s what we can do from an operational perspective around health care and housing, and that’s what maximizes the return on investment.

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05:17:36Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Okay. It’s getting harder and harder to recruit people from other parts of the world and the province coming here when they drive through our towns and cities and see the social issues we’re facing with no real—we provide services, but we have huge gaps, and it’s getting harder and harder to fund or to make this economy work when we can’t get people.

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05:18:23Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

Yes, and particularly in the north. For some of you, it’s probably your first visit to Kapuskasing. On your trip here, you probably ran out of cell service at least a few times. That’s the reality of—where we could do virtual services in other parts of the province, that’s not a possibility; the infrastructure just isn’t there. The time that it takes for an individual to travel from one community to another—so where in one municipality in an urban setting you can see six clients in a day, here you might only be able to see two because of the transportation that’s required to get to them. There’s an impact of all of these things that—

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05:19:49Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That concludes the time. We’ll now go to MPP Fairclough.

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05:20:00Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thank you to all three of you for coming to present today. I will have questions in both of my slots for each of you. Julia, I’m going to start with you. Thank you for coming on behalf of parents today. We’ve had a lot of discussion about education over the course of the day and in other sessions. I’m the mom of teenage boys in the public system, so I would also say I have seen a shift over the years as class sizes have increased. You make a really compelling case for the need for more supports in the classroom and also for us to cap class sizes and, ideally, reduce them to make all of this manageable. If you needed to pick, though—based on what you’re hearing from parents, are there certain age ranges that you think it’s most important that we move to doing that now? Do you have any suggestions?

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05:20:58Official transcript

Ms. Julia Evangelisto

I don’t think we can look at it in terms of age, because regardless of age, children with disabilities who have additional needs are going to continue to need that support. I’ll use, for example, a child who is deaf; they’re going to learn skills and strategies along the way throughout their years. Our hope is that we get those specialized, qualified professionals who are working with those students so that they can gain those skills and so that we can phase out those supports over time. If you look at it in terms of age, we hope, in the foundational years of the primary grades, kindergarten to grade 3, that we’re really supporting children as best as we can so that we can, again, build skills, get them so that they can work together in groups and be able to navigate the school throughout their day safely. Kids who have mobility needs, for instance, need that extra adult on hand to make sure that they’re moving throughout the school safely and that they don’t hurt themselves, or that they’re keeping the focus and giving them the outlet to emotionally and physically regulate their bodies so that they are not acting out physically, so that they’re able to return to the classroom, to the lesson situation and to focus and retain and gain some of that knowledge that’s being taught. If we don’t have those supports early on, then the problems just get bigger as they get older, and we end up needing more supports down the road, even though we could have prevented a lot of what is needed. What we are hearing from parents in our community is that if it’s not being given or if it’s taken away—and lately there has been a reduction in EA support. For example, a child who did have full-time support was reduced to halftime and was forced to move throughout the school and their learning without that help and attention on their needs, and then it’s being reduced—even less and less. So if we can have it possible to be given to children—what they need when they need it—we can reduce it down the road and have the long-term investment in so that they can develop and learn skills and gain independence and be able to move throughout the rest of their lives more successfully. There are populations of children who are going to require support throughout their entire educational journey. Those children are able to stay in school until they’re 21, and then they would transition to some sort of adult day program past that. There’s not a one-size-fits-all approach. We have to make sure that all of the components are thoughtfully considered so that all of it works, because if pieces of it are missing, it becomes ineffective. It’s like getting a puzzle from a garage sale. You hope and wish that all of the pieces are going to be intact, but if they’re not—

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05:24:22Official transcript

Ms. Julia Evangelisto

—it becomes useless, and I can’t use it. The same goes for children—if they’re not given what they need when they need it, in terms of speech and language assistance, occupational therapy, physical therapy. Especially when we look in the north, those services and the service providers are fewer and far between. The geography definitely plays into how and where professionals can meet kids and give recommendations to the school so that they can develop in their language acquisition and learn the skills of reading and writing. In terms of looking at the longevity of children who have needs, yes, early prevention is needed, but there is still a wide population that is going to need support and programs—

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05:25:13Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That concludes the time for that question. We’ll now go to MPP Dowie.

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05:25:20Official transcript

Mr. Andrew Dowie

I want to thank all the presenters for being here today. My question is for Paul at the CMHA. Thank you for the presentation and the materials. I’m just hoping to get a better sense of the role CMHA plays in terms of crisis response. I know my community and I have worked incredibly well with them—they do the youth wellness hub, and they provide a lot of services, but they don’t do the crisis response. So if someone in the community is suffering from homelessness, that’s left to others to do. I’m not sure if that’s the model province-wide. So I just wanted to better understand the role the CMHA plays in terms of that in-the-moment, emergency response, if any, or if it’s more focused on scheduled appointments and something that is a bit longer-term versus in the moment.

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05:26:17Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

In the Timiskaming area, we do offer mobile crisis response, which is a co-response with OPP. We launched that as an initiative in September 2020, essentially. When the pandemic hit in March 2020 and we saw individuals starting to work from home and certain services being curtailed—one of the things that we know about mental health and addiction services is that isolation does not work well with health. You need to be connected. As we were doing that social distancing, the impression was, “We’re likely going to see an increase in calls for OPP and emergency health services.” And in Timiskaming, we launched a mobile crisis program, which we continue today. We’ve significantly decreased the number of individuals who access emergency departments in that district, and we’ve also significantly decreased the amount of time that OPP officers have to spend in the emergency department, through that program. That being said, we’re still advocating for renewable funding for the program, as it has been year-to-year funding, with this year being a two-year allotment. So that’s what happens in Timiskaming. We partner with our organizations in the Cochrane district. Mobile crisis and crisis services in the Timmins area is offered through our local hospital, but we support them. The idea is that in responding to the crisis in the moment, if we want to decrease a repetition or going to the emergency department again, we need to hook them up to services. And that’s the role we play, really, in the Cochrane district.

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05:28:08Official transcript

Mr. Andrew Dowie

So, ultimately, once someone responds to a case of a mental health crisis or, say, they’re facing homelessness and they believe it’s a mental health issue, it would be responded to by the emergency services, and then they would call you up and say, “We see a need for your program, to bring this person back to health.” Is that how it works?

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05:28:33Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

Not typically. That wouldn’t be the typical pathway, because crisis—my definition of “crisis” would identify somebody who is at imminent risk of self-harm, harm to others, and that’s not typically how individuals access services. What we do, for example—we have a walk-in/call-in service. We’re probably around 3:40 p.m. right now, and if you were to walk into our office in Timmins and you needed to speak to somebody in a moment, you’re going to speak to somebody; if you call in and you need to speak to somebody, you’re going to speak to somebody. If somebody is coming in, what we want to do is really that crisis avoidance. We don’t want to rely, if we don’t have to, on emergency services. We want to divert from the emergency department. So the definition of “crisis” for me, in some ways, is very specific around, there are emergency services involved. For the rest, we’d be the first call—we would be the ones. We would physically go to the location. We would connect. We’d sit at a table with other partners around a shared housing wait-list, saying, “We all have clients who need to access housing. They all need supports. Let’s share this wait-list and prioritize them together.”

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05:30:00Official transcript

Mr. Andrew Dowie

Just a final follow-up, Chair: Ultimately, what are the biggest challenges that you are facing with getting someone back to health, in terms of the services that the CMHA does provide? Capacity concerns—just hoping you can share a bit more.

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05:30:21Official transcript

Mr. Paul Jalbert

In the work that we do, one of the major challenges is housing. We often say housing is one of the first mental health interventions. We can treat individuals for their anxiety, for example. The challenge here is, somebody being anxious about not knowing where they’re going to sleep tonight is absolutely normal; that is not something that should be treated. And even if we were able to treat it—

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