Tuesday, January 27, 2026

The committee met at 1001 in the Centre Régional de Loisirs Culturels inc., Kapuskasing.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Kapuskasing. We’ll call this meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs to order. We’re meeting today to conduct public hearings on the 2026 pre-budget consultations. Please wait until you’re recognized by the Chair before speaking. As always, all comments should go through the Chair. The Clerk of the Committee has distributed committee documents, including written submissions, to committee members via SharePoint. To ensure that everyone who speaks is heard and understood, it is important that all participants speak slowly and clearly. Each presenter will have seven minutes for their presentation. After we have heard from all three presenters, the remaining 39 minutes in this time slot will be used for questions from the members of the committee. This time for questions will be divided into two rounds of five minutes and 30 seconds for the government members, two rounds of five minutes and 30 seconds for the official opposition members, two rounds of five minutes and 30 seconds for the recognized third party members, and two rounds of three minutes for the independent member of the committee. I will provide a verbal reminder to notify you when you have one minute left for your presentation or allotted time to speak. Any questions from the committee?

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

We will introduce the first panel, which is virtual: Timmins Academic Family Health Team; town of Deep River; Métis Nation of Ontario, region 3. I do ask each presenter to introduce themselves before they make their presentation, to make sure that we can attribute the comments to the right name. With that, we can go to Timmins Academic Family Health Team. The floor is yours.

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

My name is Mélanie Ciccone. I’m the executive director of the Timmins Academic Family Health Team, also known as the TAFHT. I’ll be sharing our experience of the TAFHT, as well as speaking of some experiences from the Iroquois Falls Family Health Team and the East End Family Health Team. Today, I’m accompanied by Katherine Harvey, who is the executive director of the East End Family Health Team. Thank you very much for this opportunity today to come and share some of what we’ve been going through and some of the challenges as well as some ideas. The TAFHT is one of the largest family health teams in northeastern Ontario, and we are funded by Ontario Health. The TAFHT, East End Family Health Team, and Iroquois Falls Family Health Team are part of the Cochrane Ontario health team. Within that OHT, there are approximately 26,000 unattached patients. In Timmins, there are 9,000 unattached patients, which means about one in five individuals does not have access to a primary care provider. The TAFHT works closely with the White Pines Family Health Network, which is an FHN, a group of 29 physicians. We receive funding for eight nurse practitioners, and the nurse practitioners for Timmins, Iroquois Falls, and East End Family Health Team all work as the most responsible provider, in a similar role to physicians. They have their own roster of patients they’re responsible for and provide care from cradle to grave. Our team is also comprised of administrative staff, as well as 20 allied health professionals: registered nurses, registered practical nurses, social workers, and a psychologist. We provide care to patients who are rostered or attached to our clinic. We also run an unattached primary care clinic. The East End Family Health Team and Iroquois Falls Family Health Team provide similar services as the TAFHT. As you are well aware, the government of Ontario has set the objective of attaching every Ontarian to primary care by 2029. Primary care is the first point of contact within the health care system. Established family health teams such as Timmins, East End, and Iroquois Falls are well positioned to expand our services to help reach that goal of attachment. By expanding our services, we can provide timely access to care. Patients want to access this team-based care. We have been successful and are very thankful for the additional investments that have been made in primary care to help expand our teams, and we support these additional investments that will be happening over the years. The government’s vision is quite ambitious—to attach every Ontarian. There are challenges that we’re meeting that are currently impacting our ability to be able to deliver these objectives. Some of those challenges involve vacancies. At TAFHT, we currently have seven vacancies out of 36 funded positions; Iroquois Falls has two, and East End has about four. We struggle with retaining our staff. Our turnover rate for the TAFHT is the highest it has been in three years, at 38.1%; Iroquois Falls Family Health Team is at 15%, over the last three years. And East End just lost two nurse practitioners over the last three months. Timmins has been able to recruit its first family physician in two years, but our community still requires about a dozen to meet just the current need, to help with the unattached population. We received funding over a year ago for an unattached primary care clinic, and we’re still trying to fill two nurse practitioner vacancies. We recently filled another nurse practitioner vacancy after 1.5 years of being unfilled. Iroquois Falls Family Health Team has one nurse practitioner vacancy; East End has two, as well as 1.8 vacancies for physicians. We’re having trouble recruiting and retaining. Staff are telling us they’re leaving for higher-paying jobs or aren’t applying to our vacant positions due to the rate of pay. Furthermore, inadequate compensation contributes to feelings of devaluation and reduced professional efficacy. Through our exit interviews with staff, staff indicate being unsatisfied with the benefit packages that we’re offering them. Also, while it’s great that the provinces have interprovincial agreements to enhance the mobility of health care staff, with the goal of recruiting health care staff to Ontario, we have staff who are leaving their positions to work from their homes in Ontario, providing virtual primary care services to patients living in other provinces, because of higher-paying jobs. Due to our difficulties in recruiting physicians, nurse practitioners, as well as allied health staff, we’re unable to attach patients, therefore impacting our ability to meet the government’s priority of attaching everyone to primary care. Vacancies and high turnover rates have a huge impact on our team—posting, interviewing, onboarding, training, providing coverage during shortages. When physicians and NPs leave, our already overworked team is trying to provide coverage, and if we’re unable to, we need to discharge those patients from our care. Our teams are faced with burnout and decreased staff morale. Patient care is impacted when our team isn’t at full capacity; either services are delayed or we’re not able to provide some services. When patients can’t access timely care, they end up going to the emergency department—which is an already strained system. Our wages, which are not competitive, limit our ability to compete in the labour market. We have difficulty hiring qualified and experienced staff. There are a few solutions that we’d like to bring forward. In October, the government announced a $142-million investment over three years. For year one—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

—that resulted in a 2.7% wage adjustment for our staff. That is their first increase since the last adjustment that was made, from 2016 to 2020. For the past five years, they haven’t received an increase, although inflation has fluctuated between 2% to 7%. For us to be able to stabilize the workforce, prevent the collapse of our existing teams and connect patients to primary care, we have three requests: (1) that the government unlock the recruitment and retention funding that is targeted for year 2 and year 3—the remaining $115 million, right now, in year 1; (2) that the government invest an additional $430 million over five years to close the structural compensation gap. There remains a 15%-to-30% discrepancy in the structural wage gap. This includes adequately compensating our NPs, who are working as—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That concludes the time for the presentation. Hopefully, we can get the rest in when we do the rounds of questioning. We now will hear from the town of Deep River.

Official source

Ms. Sue D’Eon

My name is Sue D’Eon. I’m the mayor of Deep River. They have my presentation, so I’m going to assume that they’re going to show it?

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Yes.

Official source

Ms. Sue D’Eon

Okay, great. So I’ll just go through the slides with you today. Deep River is located halfway between Ottawa and North Bay, on the Ottawa River. The population is about 4,200 people. If you watched the Oppenheimer movie, we are the Canadian birthplace of nuclear energy in Canada—all built around the same time as in the US, at Los Alamos. We’re known for a lot of things, but mostly for being the home of Canadian Nuclear Laboratories. This post by Minister Lecce was made on Facebook a couple of days ago: “Energy policy must be rooted in reliability, affordability, and economic sovereignty—not ideological delusion.” My four key take-aways: (1) I applaud the province of Ontario—Minister Lecce, in particular—for having the wisdom and foresight to invest in and grow nuclear energy in Ontario as baseload power. (2) I suggest Ontario double down on that investment by adopting Candu nuclear technology for future grid-scale projects and promoting Candu internationally to further capitalize on every dollar. (3) I suggest leveraging the state-of-the-art facilities and nuclear expertise and the billions of dollars invested by the federal government at Chalk River Laboratories, relying on their deep nuclear science expertise in the Ottawa Valley. Let’s not reinvent the wheel. (4) With regard to budgets, I suggest that Ontario be more strategic with electricity rebates and redirect a portion of the 23.5% Ontario Electricity Rebate to building new grid-scale Ontario nuclear at Deep River and CNL—a first-of-its-kind micro modular reactor. I put this slide in all my presentations because it’s just the facts from our world and data—per kilowatt hour generated, nuclear energy is one of the most proven, cleanest and safest energy generation sources. Why nuclear? It’s low-carbon and highly efficient. It has high reliability and provides excellent baseload capacity, has low operating cost and a small footprint. And nuclear power supports energy security and reduced reliance on fossil fuels. It also represents a huge market opportunity for Ontario. For any of you who are interested, you can download this little icon, Gridwatch, on your phone and you can see where your power in Ontario is generated at any given hour or minute and break it down as to which reactors are online or which hydro dams are producing the most power. It’s kind of cool. Why Candu? All 20 units of existing power reactors in Ontario are Candu. Candu reactors use natural uranium mined in Canada and processed in Ontario. Alternatives use enriched uranium, which causes more nuclear proliferation concerns. Candu is the only reactor which produces medical isotopes without interrupting electricity generation. A single Candu reactor will support about 50,000 jobs or more in Canada, and each Candu unit sold abroad could create up to 25,000 Canadian jobs and tap into the highly experienced Canadian supply chain of over 200 companies—again, mostly in Ontario. So will Ontario be a buyer and importer, or a builder and an exporter of world-class technology? In October, our Deep River council passed a motion supporting Candu. I just put a quote of the president of AtkinsRéalis—that Candu is a national treasure and was developed here in Ontario, in Deep River. Ontario can’t have clean energy and nuclear energy without the science support of Canadian nuclear labs. They are a world-class leader in innovative applications, and they do a lot of support for the reactor supply chain. This is just a picture of some of the recent investments in Chalk River labs, some of the new mass timber buildings that have gone up. In your lower left corner, you’ll see the new team of BWXT, Kinectrics, Battelle and Amentum that are now part of the GOCO—government-owned, contractor-operated. Finally, Deep River and CNL are the ideal hosts for Canada’s first modular reactor pilot—an autonomous reactor that produces just enough power and heat for a small, remote town or mining industry. I’m going to skip to the next slide, please, because I’m worried about time. Number four: Suggest reworking the application of the Ontario Electricity Rebate to make it progressive to need, then invest the savings to support growth of the nuclear sector, more clean energy, jobs and financial stability. In the lowest-income quintile, people spend 4.6% of their before-tax income on home energy, while the higher-income quintiles spend only 1.2%—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Ms. Sue D’Eon

—blanket policy. We suggest using means testing or a sliding scale. In conclusion, these are my four points, and I thank you for listening to me and taking the time to hear about nuclear.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much for your presentation. We now will move to the Métis Nation of Ontario, region 3.

Official source

Ms. France Picotte

My name is France Picotte. I am the past chair for the Métis Nation of Ontario. I want to take this opportunity to thank the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs for the opportunity to appear before you today. Before I jump in, I want to acknowledge that in recent years, there has been a resurgence of misinformation about Métis people and Métis rights in Ontario. That misinformation does not reflect the law, the history or decades of joint work between the Métis Nation of Ontario and this province. Our rights have been affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada, reinforced through rigorous joint research, and relied upon by governments and proponents for years. What matters today is that Ontario already has a proven consultation partner in the Métis Nation of Ontario, that delivers certainty, clarity and outcomes. Ontario is moving quickly right now to advance major infrastructure, mining and critical mineral projects, particularly in the north. The Métis Nation of Ontario understands that urgency. For more than a decade, our lands, resource and consultation branch has been working on major development files across the province. That work has helped projects move forward by identifying impacts early, providing clear advice to government, and supporting community participation within project timelines. That is exactly how you avoid delays. With the introduction of the “one project, one process” system, consultation timelines are expected to be tightened even further. That makes early, well-resourced consultation even more important. What we are asking for is straightforward. We are asking Ontario to invest $1.5 million per year over five years to formally purchase consultation service delivery through the Métis Nation of Ontario lands, resource and consultation branch, and to finalize a consultation protocol that clearly sets out how the crown engages Métis rights-bearing communities. This funding supports very specific work. Firstly, we process consultation notifications, then assess potential impacts on Métis rights and coordinate information exchanges with ministries and proponents. We also facilitate community meetings and place clear, on-the-record submissions into the consultation process. When that work is properly resourced, files stay on schedule, issues are addressed early, proponents know what is expected, and Ontario avoids late-stage disruption that slows the project down. Without stable funding, especially as timelines compress, the risk isn’t that consultation stops; it’s that it becomes strained, which creates uncertainty for everyone involved. This investment protects a system that already works. It supports faster, more predictable project delivery, while ensuring Ontario continues to meet its constitutional obligations in a practical, efficient way. Métis Nation of Ontario’s partnership history with Ontario has resulted in projects being approved, mines being built, and investment moving forward in a predictable way. We’ve signed IBAs with Springpole Gold in Métis Nation of Ontario’s region 1, the Waasigan transmission line with Hydro One in regions 1 and 2, and Iamgold right here in region 3. Recently, the Ministry of Energy and Mines reached out to us on the development of multiple electrical transmission lines projects, including a line between Wawa and Timmins. MNO’s region 3 is working on that project and hopes that consultation and negotiations with Hydro One will result in economic benefit for the region, the community and the entire province. Those are just some of the recent examples to show that we have built systems that work for the crown, for proponents and for communities here in Ontario. And we want to keep doing that. I want to be clear that investing in Métis consultation capacity is not an added cost to the system; it is a risk-reduction measure, and it is what keeps projects on track. The MNO is not asking Ontario to invent something new. We are asking the province to continue investing in a system that already works. With stable funding, the MNO lands, resource and consultation branch can continue to deliver timely reviews, coordinate effortlessly with ministries, support citizens’ participation and provide proponents with the clarity they need to move forward with confidence. We also believe there is value in closer collaboration. We would welcome the opportunity to work directly with the province and with the—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Ms. France Picotte

—level of experience to identify concrete examples where effective consultation has helped projects move faster, as well as any emerging challenges created by compressed timelines and regulatory changes. That kind of feedback loop benefits everyone, and it ensures Ontario’s economic objectives and constitutional obligations move forward together. In closing, Métis Nation of Ontario has shown repeatedly that strong consultation does not slow development; it enables it. With the right investment, we can continue to be the partner Ontario needs as major projects move forward across the north and across the province. Thank you for your time today. I would be pleased to answer any questions.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much for the presentation. We will now start the first round of questioning, and we will start with the official opposition. MPP Vanthof.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to appear before the committee. I’d like to direct my first round of questioning to Timmins Academic Family Health Team. Although I’m not very familiar with Timmins, I’m very familiar with Iroquois Falls Family Health Team, and your issues are very similar. At the end, you kind of got rushed, so I’d like you to take the time to explain—first of all, just a short question: How long did it take you to drive here, and do you always feel safe on our highways? And then go into it.

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

It took us just over two hours this morning. There were sections of the road that weren’t there. We were between two transports. One transport decided to pass, and there were three—it was quite tight. So, yes, there are ongoing concerns with our highways. Thank you for allowing me that extra 20 seconds to explain our last idea. The first one was around releasing the money that has been promised in year 2 and year 3—right now, we’re in year 1—and some additional compensation for our salaries to become competitive in our market. The third one would be looking at specific incentives to attract health care workers to the northeast.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

Although we may disagree with the government on philosophy—the goal of having everyone attached to primary care is a lofty one, but a good one. Will you be able to reach that goal in your region unless some of these changes or similar changes are made?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

I don’t believe that we’ll be able to meet that goal within the set timeline. We would need about a dozen physicians, on top of nurse practitioners, to come to our community—and that’s not looking at the number of physicians who are going to be retiring in the next five years. To be able to provide that team-based care, you need registered nurses, registered practical nurses, and social workers. We’re having people leave our industry or not come to our industry because they’re better paid in other sectors.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

The base would be that people who work in your sector would be comparatively paid to where they can get paid in other areas—is that basically what you’re asking for?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

It is. Right. For example, a registered nurse at our organization at the top of our scale is making $40 an hour. I compared it to the collective agreement for the health unit or for Ontario Health atHome. The top of their pay grade is $51 an hour. That’s an $11-an-hour difference.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

So, actually, you can’t blame people for going where they get paid more. It’s a very obvious problem with a fairly simple solution.

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

Yes. The government has committed to growing our teams, which is fantastic, because we do need additional workers to attach more—but we also need that increase to our funding to improve our salaries, to be able to recruit those workers.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

You also mentioned access to other tools. What would other tools be for recruitment?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

Right now, for example, it’s quite competitive to attract a physician to a community. Some municipalities are offering incentives, but we’re competing against each other. It would be good to look at, provincially, where our biggest needs are. We have been identified as one of the forward sortation areas, FSAs, that is having the most difficulty with recruitment. If that is the case, what additional incentives can we offer to help attract people to our community?

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

You’re right that municipalities are—I have several in my riding that are—competing against each other.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

Would you agree that it is an area where the province needs to do more than just talk about stepping in, and step in and try to equalize that?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

Yes, it would be helpful.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

Any other comments in your 30 seconds you have left?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

No, that’s all. Thank you for giving me that extra time.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you very much for coming.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

MPP Fairclough.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thank you very much to all three presenters this morning, and a special thank you for making the two-hour journey here to talk to us about health care and access to services in Timmins. I’m struck by the numbers that you’re giving around the recruitment and what it might take—and also your comment about the impact of Bill 2, which means that now people are moving to provide virtual care to other provinces. It strikes me that this is pretty urgent, actually—that we get a handle on what the best ways are to keep people practising in our own environments. As you’ve had discussions with staff who are making those choices—what, beyond salaries, would be important to them, to be sure that you’re able to retain them in your family health team?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

Beyond salaries, I think benefits fall into that category. If we’re looking at other organizations—their benefits are at about 30%; we’re funded at 22.5%, so that does have an impact. If we look at other tools—I think professional development is important. There have been some good investments through OHT with AI scribe, as well as online booking. Those are sometimes one-time funding—so having that commitment for ongoing funding would be reassuring and would help our providers have the necessary tools to help lessen the administrative burden.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

I went for an early-morning visit to the hospital here in Kapuskasing. I wanted to go and talk to some people there about delivering care and what they’ve been facing. They had a few comments. One was how important it is to keep the road open here for emergency care and for complicated births, but also, increasingly, being able to regularly get access to specialists for the care—and I’m sure you have this issue with referrals. Also, access to mental health care is a growing need. I’d be interested in the perspectives from Timmins and from the primary care that you’re providing—you’re no doubt referring a lot. Do you have any comments on some of those other services and referral pathways in the north?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

For Timmins, we are the hub for Ontario Telemedicine Network, OTN, services—so people not having to travel to see a specialist, being able to see one virtually. Mental health visits are our top referrals to specialists. Some individuals do quite well with virtual services, but other people prefer the face-to-face. We are receiving feedback from patients too with certain services like the Ontario Structured Psychotherapy Program—with a preference to be able to see somebody in person.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

As you’ve been trying to recruit—are these among some of the professionals you’re trying to recruit into your own community?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

For our family health team, we’re actually quite lucky—we are fully staffed for our social workers.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

They’re not able to recruit here, so that’s great that you are.

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

Yes, but it’s retaining them which is the difficulty, and also properly recognizing them. Our BSWs—a social worker with their bachelor’s, compared to their master’s—get paid the same in our environment but come with very different skill sets.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thank you very much. I appreciate your answers. I’ve got another minute?

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Two minutes.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

My next question is to Mayor D’Eon from the town of Deep River. Thank you very much for your presentation. It was great to see some of the photos, actually, of the Chalk River labs, and the work that’s happening in your community. My father worked in the nuclear industry for many, many years, so I grew up knowing Candu. I’m interested to hear more about the current state of your micro modular reactors and what it will take to have that technology available—again, the promise—as we’re trying to develop mines etc. in the north. How could they really help us to achieve some of those goals?

Official source

Ms. Sue D’Eon

I’m no expert on micro modular reactors, but I do attend the CNA conferences, and I have looked into the topic.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Ms. Sue D’Eon

As you might be aware, Global First Power was supposed to have built a micro modular reactor at Chalk River, starting a couple of years ago, but Ontario Hydro pulled out of the funding, and NuScale, the micro provider, which was American, was bankrupt. There were several companies in Canada—a molten-salt one in New Brunswick and another one in New Brunswick. What I understand, from talking to some people, is that they’re spread too thin. Money is put all over the place and spread around, and there isn’t enough to advance one to construction at this time—especially if it’s a Canadian. What the experts at CNL have told me is that there’s probably one in the States that is in the same boat—that they want to pursue one that’s sort of based on—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That concludes the time for that question. We now will go to MPP Dowie.

Official source

Mr. Andrew Dowie

I want to thank all three presenters for being here. I’ll share my time with my colleagues. Ms. Picotte, I was hoping to better understand the process for the consultation that you embark on with governments, the resource industries. I just want to get a better understanding as to what the process is from your side and how, say, the provincial support being requested will help to improve that.

Official source

Ms. France Picotte

Well, we get notices from proponents or government. They come into the offices; they go through the lands and resources—and they are separated in whatever region it is. For our region, it comes here. We have a committee, also, of all the presidents of the communities in our region that participate. Then, it goes to the citizens. They do their scientific research—our branch does scientific research. They bring the results to the committee, and then they have their suggestion that goes back to either the proponent or the government.

Official source

Mr. Andrew Dowie

Hopefully, the additional investment would be to add capacity. You only have so many people who have the technical capabilities to understand these files, and you’re looking for more technical support. Is that a good understanding?

Official source

Ms. France Picotte

We’re looking for extra capacity because that’s always needed, because of the technical aspect. We’re also a fairly remote area, so everything is more expensive. It’s harder to actually retain our staff and to get the work done that needs to be done, because if there’s travel and stuff—which always is—that’s always an extra cost. But it’s for the technical review especially.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

MPP Saunderson.

Official source

Mr. Brian Saunderson

Thank you very much to all our presenters this morning. Thank you for coming to share your expertise and your input. Also, thank you for all you do on a daily basis in your community. It’s wonderful to be up north. I’m from Simcoe–Grey, which is at the bottom of Georgian Bay. At Queen’s Park, they tell me I’m from the north. Now we really are up here. So it’s great to be here. How much time do I have?

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

You have 2.2 minutes.

Official source

Mr. Brian Saunderson

Okay. I want to talk with you, Mayor D’Eon, just initially, about your comments on the importance of the nuclear sector in your municipality—I would take it it’s probably one of your bigger employers.

Official source

Ms. Sue D’Eon

Yes, it’s our largest by far. The other one would be Garrison Petawawa.

Official source

Mr. Brian Saunderson

Your comment about working with the medical uses, the isotopes—what isotopes do they produce, and where do they distribute those to help our medical sector?

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Ms. Sue D’Eon

They have the research on the isotopes. They used to produce all the isotopes, when the NRU was operating, until 2018. Now both plants in Darlington, I believe, and Pickering produce the isotopes. The isotope they’re working on now is actinium, which is a very rare isotope they created through a partnership with a cyclotron company, and they break it down. It’s for alpha therapy, so it’s targeted to go to the cell of prostate cancer in particular, but it can be bladder cancer. It’s considered the rarest drug on earth, and they have a partnership with a pharmaceutical company to bring it to market.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Ms. Sue D’Eon

My husband has had his therapy for a heart analysis, and it’s really important. There are about 44 million medical isotope treatments a year in the world.

Official source

Mr. Brian Saunderson

It’s fantastic to hear that. My riding is next to Grey-Bruce, where the Bruce plant is. They do quite a bit of work in the isotope sector, and I know it’s a contributor to our medical sector and medical technology innovation. My next question is for Ms. Picotte. It’s wonderful to hear your input today about the consultation process. It’s a big, important part of our work in the north—opening up the Ring of Fire. I’m wondering if your Métis Nation has been engaged by any other of our Indigenous bands for their consultation process, because it sounds like you’re ahead of the curve.

Official source

Ms. France Picotte

We—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. The answer will have to come in the next round. We’re out of time on that question. MPP Vanthof.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

I’d like to return to Mélanie just for one observation, or your opinion. Retention: We are training a lot of people in health care, or trying to ramp up the training. But holding them in the system is probably as big a challenge as training new people in the system. Would you agree with that?

Official source

Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

Yes.

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Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you very much. My next question is to France from the Métis Nation. In this part of the world, we have lots of events, and the Métis Nation and the First Nations are always seen together. You alluded to it at the start of your presentation—there seems to be friction between the leadership of the two nations. Could you elaborate on where that friction is coming from? We don’t see it here, but there is obviously friction, because we read about it. So could you elaborate on that?

Official source

Ms. France Picotte

There’s friction at the political level, for sure. On the ground, most Métis and First Nations do get along—I have nieces, cousins—but politically, for some reason, there has been a resurgence of issues. Either First Nations don’t believe we exist or—it’s a whole bunch of different things. I think it’s politically generated, and I think it’s all got to do with money. That’s my personal opinion—it’s money and power, unfortunately. If we would work together instead of being at each other’s throats, we would probably get further, because many of our aspirations are the same, many of our beliefs are the same—but we’re a different people. Métis people have been here, especially in this region, for a very, very long time. We trap—I don’t know; four generations, three generations back trapline. So we’ve been here forever. We do exist, but our voice is not as loud as the First Nations voice, politically, and I think that’s the issue. When we do work together, we work very well together. Here in our region, we worked on a cemetery together, but now we can’t seem to finish it because of political issues.

Official source

Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you. My next question is to the mayor of Deep River. You talked—and we also, actually, in the House asked a question regarding Candu, and we’re supporters. Do you see a risk with using enriched uranium, which we have to import, as opposed to using our own source of uranium through the Candu system?

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Ms. Sue D’Eon

Well, it just seems like if we have control of the supply chain and don’t have to enrich it, it’s easier both to license and to produce and supply, so it’s just a benefit. I don’t know that there’s a huge risk in having enriched uranium. Certainly, the small modular reactors being built in Darlington right now do use fuel for that purpose, which is enriched. But for grid scale, why reinvent the wheel when you’ve got a good product?

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Mr. John Vanthof

Yes, and Deep River is also—at least, in our family and many other families—known as the stop between where we live and Ottawa. It’s a really nice spot. I’m going to go back to health care. Health care is a huge, huge issue across the province, but I think, in northern Ontario—and I’d like you to—

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

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Mr. John Vanthof

What are the unique challenges you face in northern Ontario, in attracting people and holding people?

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Ms. Sue D’Eon

Beyond recruitment and retention?

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Mr. John Vanthof

Yes, beyond.

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Ms. Sue D’Eon

Specialty services, so being able to access—it’s so fortunate that we have OTN, but sometimes things can’t be done with OTN . So we are thankful for the increase that has been done with the northern Ontario travel grant, but that needs to continue to be reevaluated so people can access timely care.

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

We’ll go to MPP Fairclough.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

I’m going to direct my next question to Mayor D’Eon. My name is Lee Fairclough. I’m the MPP for Etobicoke–Lakeshore, but I’m also the Liberal lead for hospitals, mental health, addictions, and homelessness. I saw the release of the AMO report last week that has shown us that homelessness has risen by another 5,000 people in the last year, and we’re seeing rises of over 30% in many communities in the north. I just want to take this chance, while you’re here, to have a conversation with you to understand homelessness in your own community, how that relates to the availability of housing, and the kind of supports that might be needed to support your community.

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Ms. Sue D’Eon

We have a great agency that operates locally: North Renfrew Family Services. They deal with a lot of the challenges around homelessness. I will tell you that—apart from maybe sometimes in the summer, when somebody may want to camp or something like that, and tenting and stuff like that, which may be because they are unhoused—for the most part, those people are living in the Pembroke area. They gravitate to Pembroke or Ottawa. Those are the two communities that really are struggling with homelessness. So I wouldn’t want to take any resources away from those central hubs that are really dealing with the bulk of the problem. They are working hard with the county to develop ways to fix it, through the Mesa program.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

That’s great. Thank you very much. I appreciate the comment. I want to direct a similar question to our colleagues from the primary care team, as well, in Timmins, if you’ve got any comments to make about the ways that we could support people most effectively, to ensure that people aren’t living rough or living homeless in our communities. Ms. Mélanie Ciccone: I would say it’s important to continue to re-evaluate the funding available or the amount of money people are getting through Ontario Works or ODSP; making sure that it’s a livable wage, that they’re able to afford housing; looking at further investments into housing, for geared-to-income, because that’s a huge issue within our communities—the rising cost of renting or even purchasing homes; and then also making sure that people who are being put in stable housing have access to the services required to help them, with the skills necessary to stay and be successful with their housing.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thanks very much. My last question is to Ms. Picotte from the Métis Nation of Ontario. In making this request for the consultation, what would you see as the most pressing issues to ensure we have effective consultation on at the current time, given some of the bills that have recently passed etc.? Where would you see really putting your efforts in that consultation first?

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Ms. France Picotte

First and foremost, all the proponents—the government of Ontario already understands that we have different but equal rights to First Nations, so they can’t put us aside. I think that’s what happens sometimes—I want to say “often,” but I’m saying “sometimes.” The First Nations will say, “You don’t have to consult with them.” Well, I’m sorry, but we are a different people; we are an Indigenous people, and you need to consult. We need to be resourced appropriately and to be able to analyze everything that is being sent to us, and to put it in a way so that our citizens, our people, understand and can give an educated response to that. It’s much easier to be involved at the start, understand the project and either agree or give the reasons why not, and protect our resources. It’s much easier to do it from the start, without any discrimination, without anything holding either the proponents or the government back.

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

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Ms. France Picotte

So that’s what we need. We need that money to be able to analyze that and put it, then, in words—either in French, English or Michif—so that our people can understand it.

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

You have 44 seconds.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

I’ll keep going, then. I’d like to use this opportunity to talk about health care in the north. I wonder if you could speak a bit about the plan. I know there are a lot of physicians planning to retire in your community, and your attachment rates are getting at—close to 17,000 or 18,000 people who need to be attached. Again, how does that affect the ability to access care, more generally, for people—if they aren’t attached?

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Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

If they aren’t attached, we do run an unattached primary care clinic, but we have two NP vacancies, so our current—

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. Time is up. MPP Saunderson.

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Mr. Brian Saunderson

I ran into the same problem last round. France, I’m going to go back to you. I don’t know if you remember the question. I was just complimenting your work in the consultation process—it is an important process—and I was wondering if you had any advice for us. I understand from your last answer that you’re telling us there’s some political friction between your interest groups and some of the other Indigenous interest groups, and I’m wondering if you have any recommendations on how we might bridge those.

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Ms. France Picotte

Well, that’s a good one. Do I have recommendations? I wish it would go back to what it was before there was that friction. Recommendations? Maybe just keep going—that the government does recognize us, and make sure the proponents know that they have to consult with us. Eventually, we’ll have to come together—everybody—and have a talk. I don’t know who is going to facilitate that. Right now, I don’t think the climate is there yet, but something like that has got to happen, because we work much better when we work together; everybody is more efficient, and it’s easier on the proponents, easier on the government. But maybe I’m dreaming. So, yes, we need the government’s support, to acknowledge that we’re there, and you do already—but to make sure that the proponents and the First Nations know it.

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

MPP Smith.

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Mr. Dave Smith

I’m going to start with Sue from Deep River. You mentioned micro modular reactors. I just want to put it in perspective for people. When we talk about nuclear reactors—small modular reactors and micro modular reactors. I think some people think we’re talking about something the size of a microwave, when we’re talking about a micro modular reactor. A typical reactor is about 360 acres. A small modular reactor is about five and a half to six acres. How big is a micro modular reactor?

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Ms. Sue D’Eon

Certainly, they can vary in scale, because they go from one megawatt up to 300 megawatts. What you would have for most small communities would be in the range of five or—say, for an industry, we would be looking at a five-megawatt reactor. And the size depends on whether you convert the steam to electricity or you just use it as steam for heat; if you have to have the conversion, then it takes up more space. I can’t tell you exactly, certainly, the one that was at Chalk River—I think they were looking for 20 acres, and that, to me, seems too big for a community that would probably feasibly use it, but they do make smaller ones. Again, it depends whether you need that electric conversion with it. Some are less than 10—

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Mr. Dave Smith

It’s just for reference. As I said, a small modular reactor is about three and a half to five acres. A “micro”—and I use the term loosely, although that’s what we refer to it in electricity as—modular reactor would be two 40-foot tractor-trailers. When we’re talking about micro, for most people—as I said, they would think it’s the size of a microwave or a television; no, it’s two tractor-trailers. That’s roughly the size of a micro modular reactor. I’m going to switch over to the health team. What we’re hearing with health teams across Ontario is that it’s a mix of professionals—you have physicians, nurse practitioners, nurses, registered practical nurses, all on the health care side, and then there are other professionals you have for other things. In terms of the health care side, if we were to come up with a model that was the ideal mix—what would you say would be the right mix for doctors, nurse practitioners, and nurses? Should it be—and I’ll just throw some hypothetical numbers—25% doctors, 50% nurses, and 25% RPNs? Is there a mix that we should be looking at that way?

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

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Ms. Mélanie Ciccone

That’s a really complex question to answer. I think it also depends on community needs. Timmins being somewhat of an urban rural centre, we’re fortunate to have access to other services within our community; for example, CMHA, a RAAM clinic. But other communities are not as fortunate to have those services. So, yes, maybe there are some ideas of what the mix would look like. Every team member has different skill sets. Our physicians and nurse practitioners are diagnosing, treating, prescribing, where our allied health are doing other supportive type services—but also looking at what the community needs are, because the family health team might need different services to help balance that out.

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Mr. Dave Smith

Chair, how much time do I have?

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

None. Thank you very much. That concludes the time for that question, and it also concludes the time for this panel. I want to thank all the panellists for the time they took to prepare and the two hours it took to get here and the challenge on the road. Thank you very much for participating in this. It will be very helpful as we carry on and get to the conclusion of our consultation for the budget.

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