Legislative Assembly of Ontario · Committee

Tuesday, January 27, 2026

Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs

The official transcript of the meeting, from Hansard, by heading. Ministers, officials and witnesses appear as the transcript names them; committees have no live transcript, so the record appears once the Assembly publishes it.

Read from the beginning of the meeting

Meeting ended

The PADDLE Program; ATCO Structures; Town of Kapuskasing

05:45:16Official transcript

Ms. Megan Johnson

My name is Megan Johnson. I’m the executive director of the PADDLE Program in North Bay, Ontario. The PADDLE Program in North Bay, an [inaudible] learning and wellness hub serving adults with complex disabilities, is going to be forced to close, without immediate government intervention. The consequences of that decision, in our opinion, are fiscally irrational and morally indefensible. It represents, basically, a failure of basic fiscal stewardship and cross-ministerial governance. We support adults whose developmental disabilities are almost always coupled with a mental illness as well as significant physical disabilities. So it’s a very high-needs, very niche, complex population; many require one-to-one support to stay alive. We were not originally designed as a crisis response program, but over 18 years, it has become one, because we can’t watch people walk into crisis in real time and do nothing. The reason it’s so critical to keep programs functioning right now is because they provide consistent weekday structure and respite that adults and caregivers rely on to prevent crisis. There are 20 caregivers supporting adults in our community who have stated clearly that if our program shuts down they cannot sustain their current caregiving arrangements over the next year. The impending closure of this program is therefore the destabilizing event. The closure of this program will directly precipitate emergency room use, prolonged hospitalization, and involuntary institutionalization. As the Ombudsmen have found, adults with developmental disabilities are being inappropriately housed in hospitals because there are insufficient community supports and services available to meet their needs. These adults and caregivers understand what happens when structure disappears: emergency room presentation, and prolonged hospitalization. At the same time, the adults we support are watching a peer be confined to an institutional setting going on over 3,000 days. In their view, that person has been irreparably harmed. They reasonably understand that this is the pathway they are placed on if this program collapses. This program serves 36 adults; 20 are at the breaking point in their caregiver relationships right now, and that is not a failure of their families or them. This is a system that told them there is literally nowhere else to turn. The Ombudsmen have found these problems—it’s long-standing, it’s systematic, decades-long, and similar concerns have been identified for a very long time. When supports like this don’t exist, people don’t manage; they’re involuntarily contained in emergency rooms, psychiatric units, police cells and hospitals. They don’t require medical treatment, but because there’s nowhere else to go, that’s where they are. This is the pathway: community stability collapses; prices escalate; and individuals are held in systems never designed for them, at an extraordinarily high public cost. Ontario is currently paying millions of dollars to contain people it could support in the community for a fraction of that cost. The resulting harm is foreseeable, and it is preventable. From a fiscal perspective, the contrast is stark. The PADDLE Program was seeking approximately $400,000 in operational funding to stabilize these adults and to prevent the crisis that is oncoming. By comparison, Ontario’s own data—including the Ontario Auditor General, Ontario Health, and the Canadian Institute for Health Information—shows that prolonged hospital and alternative-level-of-care stays cost hundreds to thousands of dollars per day. One individual—like we said, if we’re looking at 3,000 days at the minimum, we’re looking at millions of dollars just for that person. So if even a portion of the adults whose caregivers are approaching crisis end up on this same pathway, that cost will escalate into tens of millions of dollars, and then it becomes absorbed across health, justice and emergency systems. The funding being requested represents a fraction of what is already being spent to harm people. The cost does not disappear, either; it’s absorbed across health, justice and social services, and it fragments itself in a way that makes it very difficult for the public to see, but no less real for the taxpayer. The Ombudsmen have found that people often receive services only after a crisis occurs, rather than through timely preventive supports. Ontario’s current administration’s approach requires people to enter crisis before supports are unlocked. That design directly drives higher cost in emergency and institutional spending. In North Bay, it’s not a temporary shortage; it’s a documented deficit—we do not have any homes; we do not have short stay; we do not have crisis. If you wake up and your caregiver has passed, there is nowhere to go. So the pathway for people who require care to live is the hospital. And at 3,000 days and having to pay $55 an hour to leave—it is very expensive. In North Bay, again, we’re not overwhelmed—it is misaligned. If we look at the findings and we look at Lost in Transition and we look at the number of expert panels, advisory tables, commissioned specialty groups convened over the years, a conclusion is unavoidable, and that’s that cross-sector change has long been identified as necessary to prevent harm. We’ve been here before. At Huronia Regional Centre, people were confined and buried. To this day, the identities of many of the remains found there have not been established. That work is unfinished. Proceeding to create new forms of forcible containment at extraordinary public expense is not responsible governance.

Official source

05:50:01Official transcript

Ms. Megan Johnson

We are asking you for time-limited bridge funding or pilot funding to keep this program open. We want you to consider a northern and rural Ontario pilot because of lack of availability and accessibility and a shortage of—an indefensible defence of options. We’re also asking you to put guardrails on alternative-level-of-care funding for individuals with developmental disabilities who are being held in those same institutional settings without medical necessity. When ALC beds are used as de facto containment because no community options exist, costs escalate, accountability diffuses, and harm becomes structurally invisible. It’s a budget issue, a government issue and a human issue—prevention over containment, community over crisis. In my job, we measure ourselves every day by how safe people feel in our presence—and I think that Ontario can do the same.

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05:51:21Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you. We now will hear from ATCO Structures.

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05:51:26Official transcript

Mr. Steven Graham

Good afternoon, Chair, committee members, fellow participants. I hope the weather in Kapuskasing is nice today and not too cold. My name is Steven Graham, and I’m a senior director at ATCO Structures Canada. Thank you for the opportunity to participate in today’s committee meeting and share ATCO’s recommendations for the government of Ontario’s 2026 budget, and thank you for the flexibility to do so virtually. ATCO Structures is a modular building manufacturer; we’re the largest in Canada, and we have a long-standing presence in Ontario. Right now, we’re building a major new manufacturing plant in Grimsby that will come online in just a few months. At ATCO, we help governments and the private sector deliver infrastructure faster, with greater certainty and at scale; in practical terms, that means housing, community facilities, workforce accommodations, emergency response infrastructure, all delivered where and when it’s needed. We’re very proud to be an Ontario-based manufacturing success story. Our materials and labour are almost 100% Ontario- and Canadian-sourced, and the work done in our factories is just the final step in a long, integrated supply chain—one that stimulates local economies and local companies around our facilities. Ontario is in the middle of a historic infrastructure moment. A 10-year, $201-billion capital plan is under way, alongside expanding housing programs and new financing tools. At the same time, pressures continue to grow. Housing demand is rising. Health care capacity remains tight. Northern development requires faster and more flexible solutions. And recent emergencies have underscored gaps in response infrastructure. That is the context in which modular construction matters. Modular construction shortens timelines, reduces on-site disruption, improves scheduling certainty, all while meeting the same quality and safety standards as traditional construction. With manufacturing based right here in Ontario, projects can move quickly and be consistently delivered across the province, including in remote and northern communities. That experience is what informs our recommendations to you today. Modular construction should be treated as a core infrastructure delivery tool. Today, modular is often seen as an alternative or niche solution. In reality, it is a proven, scalable approach that can deliver housing, health care, education, workforce accommodations, community facilities, all quickly. Ontario’s infrastructure challenge is not for a lack of ambition—it’s a delivery challenge; it’s a delivery certainty. Recognizing modular construction as a core capacity allows the province to deliver faster without sacrificing quality or value for money, all while helping build the provincial economy. Procurement and regulatory policies must enable modular delivery at scale. The biggest barrier to wider modular adoption is not the manufacturing capacity of the province; it’s the process. Procurement rules are often designed around traditional construction timelines, financing and sequencing. Clear policy frameworks that recognize the advantages of speed, certainty and efficiency would allow modular projects to proceed more consistently across ministries and municipalities. This is not about lowering standards. It’s about modernizing the way infrastructure is delivered across the province so public dollars achieve better results. Modular construction can play a meaningful role in accelerating housing delivery. Time is the defining constraint for housing today—how long it takes to actually build a home. Modular multi-family and single-family housing can move from planning to occupancy far more quickly than traditional building, and it meets the same building codes and safety requirements. Greater integration of modular approaches into provincial and municipal housing programs would allow Ontario to deliver housing faster without compromising quality, durability or community fit. Modular infrastructure is critical to northern and resource development. Northern Ontario and critical minerals projects require infrastructure in remote and logistically challenging environments where getting materials and labour to build is difficult and costly. Modular workforce housing infrastructure and supporting facilities allow projects to proceed without long lead times and can be adapted as the needs change. These solutions also support partnerships with Indigenous communities. We believe that embedding Indigenous participation into infrastructure delivery strengthens the outcomes and ensures the investment supports not only the physical asset, but also economic inclusion. Emergency preparedness must include modular infrastructure as an essential capability. Recent wildfire and flood evacuations have demonstrated that emergency infrastructure in our province must be deployable in days, not months. Modular solutions can provide that rapid scalable housing, operations centres and accommodations, both for evacuees and for first responders. One of the key lessons from recent emergencies is that response cannot be built during a crisis; it must already exist. Flying residents from northern communities to hotels in Niagara Falls cannot be the solution. Maintaining domestic modular capability with emergencies ensures that Ontario can respond immediately when and where it’s required. ATCO has demonstrated that when Ontario invests in domestic manufacturing capacity, it gains speed, reliability and certainty.

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06:00:00Official transcript

Mr. Steven Graham

As the government looks ahead to budget 2026, there is a clear opportunity to modernize infrastructure delivery and ensure that Ontario can meet its housing, workforce accommodation, community infrastructure, and emergency response needs with confidence. We look forward to continuing to work as a trusted partner to build the infrastructure that Ontario needs in every corner of our province. Thank you very much.

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06:00:35Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much for that presentation. The next presenter will be the town of Kapuskasing.

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06:00:42Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

My name is Dave Plourde. I’m the mayor of the town of Kapuskasing and also the president of FONOM. I’d like to thank you for choosing Kapuskasing as your place to host the meeting this afternoon. I couldn’t give up the chance to present to you fresh off ROMA and all the delegations we’ve had, so excuse me if this is a repeat of exactly what you’ve been hearing in the delegations that we’ve had. Today, I’d like to speak to you about one, the highway—Highway 11 and Highway 17. I think you’re fully aware that Highway 11 and Highway 17 are key priorities for FONOM. We’ve been lobbying to have the twinning and/or 2+1 of those two highways—the Trans-Canada—for many years. I think the time has come. I’ve taken the liberty of writing the Prime Minister myself, to suggest the possibility of a federal-provincial funding formula that would enable this to happen sooner than later. I have also suggested the possibility of including nuclear waste and maybe national defence as part of the funding formula, because we know that if you were to blow up the bridge in Nipigon, there is no way to get from the west to the east without going through the United States. This is something that is key to many northerners. Quite frankly, this year has been probably one of the worst years I’ve seen, with deaths happening—within two months, we’ve had seven deaths, both to the east and to the west of Kapuskasing. It just can’t continue. I’m not going to continue down that line. Certainly, you’ve heard enough about that; I’m sure that MPP Vanthof has shared his concerns on that. I would like to also speak on NORDS funding. I understand that 2025 was the last year for the NORDS funding. We’ve spoken to Minister Pirie about the continuation of NORDS funding. It’s really important that the NORDS funding continues for northern communities. The ability to stack that funding when necessary and use it with other funding really assists us in making sure that northern roads get what they truly deserve. The other thing is recycling. It’s a great step—to see that residential recycling is picked up and the people who produce are the ones who are paying. But like I see today around the hall, the water bottles that are actually here go to our landfill; they don’t get picked up by—we’re talking about commercial pickup of recycling. It has to happen. It’s like the program hasn’t gone from one stage to another; it has to proceed to commercial, as well. Restaurants, as you can imagine, make up a large part of what our landfill sees, and it’s a cost to continue to maintain that. The last is a NORDS-like funding; I like the word “NORDS”—but maybe something with a northern stream, a funding formula or mechanism that allows the infrastructure to proceed. We know that the future of Ontario is really in northern Ontario. I hear it often spoken that we have, in Ontario, everything that everybody needs; well, it’s in fact right in our backyard. So how are we going to enable the extraction of minerals and forestry to continue in northern Ontario, to grow Ontario, without the infrastructure in place? I bring you right back to highways—but we also need places for people to stay. If we talk about Canada Nickel, just outside of Timmins—Timmins doesn’t have enough space to house 2,700 contract workers and 1,400 full-time workers after that is open. It’s great to have it in our backyard, but how are we preparing to house these people and keep them in our communities, making sure that they have everything they need to live, work and stay in northern Ontario? I think there’s a lot to do here, but to do that—we’re going to see Smooth Rock grow; we’re going to see Cochrane grow; we’re going to see Opasatika grow; we’re going to see Hearst grow, Kap grow, but we need to put pipes in the ground and we need to build houses. We’re already dealing with infrastructure in the ground that’s a hundred years old. How do I fix what’s existing? Quite frankly, Kapuskasing was built for a population of 15,000 people—we’re 8,500 people. How is that tax base going to pay for the infrastructure that’s in the ground, but then further, the infrastructure that’s needed to house the people who are coming? I think we want to play a role in that. How do we do that? We’re pretty creative. In northern Ontario, we’re geniuses—how we can come up with different scenarios. Is it a stacked funding formula that allows our region to apply for funding as a whole, maybe, to see benefits from stacked funding—whether I include Timmins, Cochrane, Hearst, and all the smaller villages between to put all together their infrastructure and come up with a larger bid? How do we do that? I think it’s about thinking outside the box, because we have to do more of it and we have to do it cheaper, because the tax base can’t afford it. In a nutshell—I know I have seven minutes, but I don’t suggest that I take all your seven minutes; I think that you get it. If there’s a way that either FONOM or the town of Kapuskasing or the region—NEOMA—can assist in how we can come about maybe some funding for infrastructure and what I’ve spoken about today, we’re open. That’s my presentation.

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06:07:50Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much for your presentation. That concludes the presentations, and we’ll start with MPP Fairclough.

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06:07:59Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thanks to all three of you for coming to present to us today. A special thank you to you, Mayor, for having us here in your community. I’ve really been enjoying seeing Kapuskasing for the first time and wandering the streets a little this morning to take it in. Interjection.

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06:08:22Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Yes, it was very fresh. I do have questions for each of you over my two time slots, but I want to start with you, Megan, and the PADDLE Program. My background is in health care. Before I was elected, I was working at CAMH as the senior vice-president for clinical care. This issue of how we’re able to support people who have intellectual disabilities and mental illness is something that is actually a piece that’s missing in our systems of care in Ontario. I think the Lost in Transition report really highlighted that, as well. I just want to say you definitely have support from me for what you’re looking for. I do think that we need to think more broadly. I know at CAMH, we had some innovative partnerships with organizations like Reena that were doing purpose-built homes. I want to ask about your request specifically around the guardrails around ALC and lengths of stay. What are you envisioning there be put in place?

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06:09:39Official transcript

Ms. Megan Johnson

To be honest, I’m not 100% sure how that works. But what I do know is that many, if not—I think there are over 200 individuals on ALC status not receiving medical care and being housed because of a developmental disability. That, I think, is an issue.

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06:10:00Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

You’re absolutely right. There were people, for two years, staying in our hospital. This is something that we need to dig into, and I think that some of the community solutions that you’re suggesting are the direction that we need to be going in across the province. That’s great. Thank you. I’ll turn next to the mayor. I’ve heard all day, actually, quite a lot about the roads and making sure that we can develop Highways 11 and 17 in the way you need to. I started the morning at the hospital, and I would say that the clinicians on the front lines to the leadership there were saying, “This is one of the most critical issues for us—making sure that road actually stays open, so that people can get access to some of the emergency care.” I just wondered if you could speak a little bit more about the ways that we might be able to ensure that happens, and to not limit the availability of access to care for people.

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06:10:50Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

Thank you for that question. I think that the provincial police have done a really good job this year; specifically, in closing highways and enabling movement within communities, which wasn’t the case in the past. Last year, if you had a nurse who was living in Moonbeam, for example—if she had to work at the hospital, she wouldn’t have made it to work. And there’s a lot of that. There are a lot of people living outside the community who really don’t have access to the community if the roads are closed. I quite honestly take the chance on the highway every time that happens, because I happen to live in Moonbeam—and my wife is a nurse as well, so she can certainly speak to that. But I think that they’ve done a good job in making sure that there’s movement within the communities. The same goes for teachers—it’s in any profession that requires someone to be at work. I think the big, big problem here is the movement of goods. Over the time that I spent at ROMA, I had the opportunity to speak with Mayor Wayne in Moosonee. And some of these things we don’t think of—there was absolutely no food on the shelves, when that shut down.

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06:11:53Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

The food comes off the truck, onto a train. The train makes its way to Moosonee, Moose Factory. We still had food on the shelves. Four days is a long time, but I think we were doing okay. But communities like that pay the price. So I think that it’s—to look at this holistically, and how do we prevent the closing of highways? And I think that the unique suggestions of the twinning and 2+1 is that—

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06:12:15Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

—there is a barrier between that prevents head-on collisions, that allows for the flow of traffic to continue. So I think that in itself is huge. I understand that the weather has been a little different this year; certainly, it’s one to remember. But I think there are so many ways that we could—and it’s putting our heads together and making sure that we talk about it. We can’t live in a bubble. We have to continue to make sure that these roads are safe for the residents and the people driving through.

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06:12:44Official transcript

Mr. Stéphane Sarrazin

Thank you to all of you for the presentations. It’s always a good opportunity for us to learn more about all the challenges. As an ex-mayor, I’ll have to address myself to the mayor, and as the parliamentary assistant to francophone affairs, I will do it in French, if you don’t mind. Premièrement merci, monsieur le Maire, de nous recevoir ici à Kapuskasing.

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06:13:04Official transcript

M. Stéphane Sarrazin

Je pense que ça fait trois fois que je passe ici à Kapuskasing dans ma vie. Moi, je viens du côté est de l’Ontario, qui est vraiment une petite communauté très semblable à la vôtre. On peut facilement comparer mon village natal à Kapuskasing; le petit village d’Alfred de 1 200 habitants avec une grosse majorité francophone. Puis, je dois dire que je vous félicite pour vos années. Vous êtes en politique municipale depuis 1994, à ce que j’ai pu comprendre?

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06:13:31Official transcript

M. Stéphane Sarrazin

Donc, félicitations. Puis je pense que c’est vraiment une belle opportunité de pouvoir servir les gens. J’ai toujours dit que les gouvernements municipaux, ce sont ceux-là qui sont vraiment le plus près des gens. Quand j’ai servi, moi aussi—ça à l’air des inconvénients des fois. Ils peuvent venir cogner à la porte chez vous pour des services, mais, je veux dire, c’est vraiment le « fun » de pouvoir servir la communauté. Je dois dire, en vous écoutant, j’ai réalisé que, comme plusieurs d’autres municipalités, la croissance due aux projets qui s’en viennent—on parle du « Ring of Fire » ici—ça va vraiment—ce sont des beaux problèmes, mais en même temps, ce sont des problèmes qu’on doit adresser. Comme vous dites, les routes, puis aussi le logement, ce sont vraiment des choses qu’on doit regarder. Je suis fier de faire partie de ce gouvernement-là, parce que quand j’étais maire, j’ai réalisé que c’était un gouvernement qui travaillait à faire en sorte que les gens aient des bons services. Je peux me rappeler pendant la COVID, on a eu des fonds pour moderniser nos services, on a eu des fonds pour communiquer mieux avec nos citoyens. Moi, j’ai vraiment apprécié ça, puis c’est un peu la raison pourquoi aujourd’hui je fais partie de ce gouvernement-là. Je veux juste dire que c’est le fun d’avoir ça, puis j’espère que vous avez eu la chance d’appliquer sur certains des projets. On a eu quelques phases à coût d’un milliard de dollars de « funding » pour les « water infrastructure, water and sewer »—

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06:14:54Official transcript

M. Dave Plourde

On a appliqué deux fois, mais on s’est fait « denied » deux fois. C’est pour ça que je ne l’ai pas mentionné dans ma présentation. Mais c’est vraiment ça que j’aurais dû dire : on a eu deux chances; on s’est fait dire « non » deux fois. Ce qui fait que la troisième fois, il faut que ça marche.

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06:15:10Official transcript

M. Stéphane Sarrazin

Bien, la bonne nouvelle, c’est qu’il va avoir une troisième fois, puis peut-être une quatrième fois—

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06:15:16Official transcript

M. Stéphane Sarrazin

—puis je serais content de pouvoir pousser vos projets. Je pense que Kapuskasing, puis Hearst, toutes ces places-là vont devenir des endroits—vraiment, avec le « Ring of Fire », ça va être un « game-changer ». Un peu comme quand on parle des régions qui ont des réacteurs nucléaires dans la—Bruce Power, tout ça, c’est vraiment un gros défi. Parce que les gens, aussi, ils demandent de plus en plus de services du côté municipal, j’aimerais peut-être vous entendre à savoir comment est-ce que le gouvernement peut vous aider là-dedans, dans toute cette transition-là.

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06:15:47Official transcript

M. Dave Plourde

Merci pour la question. Si ça ne te fait rien, je vais répondre en anglais, juste à cause que—

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06:15:53Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

Yes, I think you raise a really important point. We were built a hundred years ago for a population of 15,000 people; we’re presently at 8,500 people. What we did have, for a long, long time, was an overabundance of infrastructure. We had houses—more than you could ask for. COVID—what happened there was, it turned everything around. What we found is that you could have picked up a house here for $100,000; it wouldn’t have been a real problem. Now that’s not the case—everything is taken up. That’s where we’re going. It completely redirected how we think of things. Rather than downsizing, because we were getting smaller, now we have to upsize because we’ve got to grow. It’s a really interesting time. It creates a different environment, where you’re thinking differently. Where that happens, where you might have downsized a sewer pipe to access a subdivision, now you’ll say, “Wow, why did I do that? It should have been bigger, because we’re growing.”

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06:16:46Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

Those are different problems to have—but certainly play a role in what we have to do going forward. Again, thanks for the question. You’re right, absolutely; it’s great to be in a bilingual community where everybody is fluent in both languages. We get along quite well, and we have a lot to offer. We know that we have to grow and we have to grow fast. If we don’t do it now, we’re going to be sitting here three years from now, still talking about the same stuff.

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06:17:12Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you to all three presenters. I’m going to start with Mayor Plourde. Although it’s no secret that we have indirectly campaigned against each other, I think, as northerners—I’m looking forward to working with you. Congratulations on your presidency at FONOM, and on your long history of municipal politics. On our shared issue—I would be remiss if I didn’t start on highway safety. I thank you for writing to the Prime Minister, because I think this is an issue of national significance. You mentioned Nipigon—somebody mentioned Nipigon, but it’s anywhere along this stretch of highway. Could you expand on what it means to you to have, basically, Highway 11/17 here as the weak link in the country’s Trans-Canada system?

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06:17:52Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

Thank you for that question. We have just under 10,000 trucks going through our community on a daily basis. I don’t know if you can imagine that. I drive on Highway 11 on a regular basis. I just got back from Toronto. I’m leaving tomorrow morning to go back to Toronto for AMO. I’ve barely had a chance to take the salt off the truck, and we’ll be back on the road again. I’ve come close, on so many occasions, to accidents on the highway—and it’s just going to get worse. We know that the increase of traffic on Highway 11, and 17, for that matter—17, less in the winter. I think that’s why we benefit from most of the trucks in the wintertime—because it’s a little less safe on 17, because of the lake effect, but it just increases the flow right through our communities. Quite frankly, it’s very dangerous—from people watching videos, if you can believe it, to texting, to impaired driving. It’s a problem, and so much so that people don’t want to drive in the wintertime. They don’t leave their house. I have a son who went to university in Thunder Bay. I didn’t want to drive to Thunder Bay on that road. They hug the centre lane. So I think there’s a need for highway safety. There’s certainly some training involved. For us who grow up in northern Ontario, we understand how it is to drive on northern roads—but not everybody has that. Even driving as much as I do on northern roads, as soon as the fall hits, I have to adjust my thinking of how I’m going to stop at that stop sign and do it a little sooner than I did in the summertime. We all have that built into us. There’s so much that we have to do, and I think it starts with the traffic and the highway. I think that it wasn’t built for the kind of traffic that we’re receiving. I’m seeing potholes on the road that I’ve never seen before, just because it’s raining in December and then all of a sudden—it’s plus 12, and then it’s minus 50. Where have we ever seen that before? That’s taking a huge piece of the road into consideration—it just beats it up. So I think more has to be done, and I think we have to move fast, or more are going to die—it’s just going to increase; it’s not going to get better. I’ll continue to drive the highways, and I’ll do it in a safe manner—as safe as I can—but I can’t do it for others. We just have to make it better for everybody.

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06:20:00Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

You brought up one thing—did you say “10,000 trucks”?

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06:20:04Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

Yes, just under 10,000—I think the number is something like 8,723.

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06:20:10Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

What a lot of people don’t realize is Highway 11—and I’m from New Liskeard, and all the way—isn’t designed much differently than your average country road in southern Ontario, where people go from one village to the next. But we face 10,000 trucks a day—cross-country trucks. It’s unique, and I think a lot of people—you mentioned it, as well—don’t understand that.

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06:20:40Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

No. I think actually driving it is believing it—you have to actually do it. I was hoping, honestly, that everybody would have driven up yesterday to experience it. And then I wouldn’t have to—

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06:20:58Official transcript

Mr. Dave Plourde

We haven’t even dealt with nuclear waste yet. They’re talking about three trucks a day for the next 50 years—call it exaggeration; make it five. That’s just nuclear waste. There are going to be how many others? That number is going to increase. So I’m all for increased rail traffic. Put more trucks on the rail—but we need rail. We need it to extend past Hearst—and further, if we’re going to access the Ring of Fire. And there’s a lot of work to do there too.

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06:21:41Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Megan, I’m going to come back to you, with the PADDLE Program. You started your presentation today by saying that you were concerned that the program that you have is going to close down. So my first question is, what is the budget ask or the amount that you’re asking for to keep the program running? Then, as do you that, can you describe a little bit more the nature of the programming that you offer?

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06:22:15Official transcript

Ms. Megan Johnson

The ask that we had was for $400,000 in annualized operating funding to reflect a long-standing structural gap—not necessarily an increase in spending, or an enhancement to an existing base, because we don’t have that. We’ve never received core operational funding. Actually, in 2007, we were a pilot project from MCCSS—a place where people could spend their individualized funding—which eventually became the Passport Program. It was quite successful, and we’ve been going for almost 20 years. It has sustained itself entirely through community donations, short-term grants and limited cost recoveries from individuals. We run on a geared-to-income model, which is unheard of in Ontario. We’re sitting at $21 a day. It’s $100 to $180 a day in other communities. There are people moving here in order to be able to maintain not being homeless and being able to afford day support. So it is a big, big issue—workforce realities, inflationary pressures, and post-pandemic issues. Safety requirements also drive up costs. Trillium, NOHFC—we’ve done very well with that—highly earned and highly competitive, off the stories of these individuals who have experienced such trauma. We have received those things, but those are project-based. They run out. They’re not consistent. They often require you to create new services that therefore need to be sustained, and that is just not where we’re at. The shortfall exists because our hub—we run five days a week. So you’re at 2.5 to five days per week, 11 months a year—also unheard of across Ontario; it’s in response to a local need. The reason why it’s 2.5 to five is because we support individuals with programming that maintains their life skills, that acts as community crisis prevention and is going to keep them safe as we move forward in what is not going to get fixed in the eight-to-10-year framework. They don’t have enough time. Journey to Belonging is the current framework. It’s an eight-to-10-year plan, and these individuals do not have enough time. They have been told there will be no home here in their lifetime. For me, we exist—oftentimes, I think about moms, to be honest with you. I think about the moms I’ve met over the years. When someone is alone—you’re 87 years old, and you have cancer, and you’re caring for a dependent adult with a developmental disability, and you come in on Monday to your day support and you say to me, “If we don’t show up next week, can you just come over and make sure we’re not dead?” There are no supports. There is nothing. We have been a crisis response in the absence of urgent response—which was neither urgent nor responsive in our city, and that is a problem. We’re watching people walk into this crisis and—we have 41 people on our wait-list. We’re very particular. We’re not a legacy-style day program. No one is sitting around just being bored. We’re an experiential learning hub. We are out, and we are in the community. They’re developing social capital, which—for people who do not have financial capital, social capital is what is going to keep them alive. It is so important. We’re out everywhere. Every cashier, every Tim Hortons person, everybody at Winners—they all know everybody by name. And the reason why we do that—yes, it’s inclusion, but it’s also safety. People who have been lost have been found with cards related—

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06:26:59Official transcript

Ms. Megan Johnson

—to our organization on them. There are a lot of people who will get hurt and will be harmed. The shrapnel of this is bigger than that, too. I don’t know if that answers your question.

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06:27:14Official transcript

Ms. Lee Fairclough

It does. Thank you very much for answering it. I will say, as somebody who used to work in the health system, there was nothing sadder to me than when a parent would call and was somewhat distressed because of the dysregulation that might be happening at home, and the answer was to get the police to come and arrest their child. Too often, I saw individuals with these combined conditions in our forensic mental health system, and that’s not good enough. That’s not the place to care for people. So thank you for your advocacy. This is certainly a gap in our system that we need to figure out how we fix—other jurisdictions have it filled; it’s time that we did.

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06:28:13Official transcript

Mr. Dave Smith

I’m going to be a bit cheeky here, because this is something that we actually haven’t had that much of an opportunity for. Earlier today, Unifor Local 89 came in and made a request to help convert Kap Paper to a supplier of OSB and MDF products. We’ve got ATCO here, which needs those types of products, and we have the mayor of Kapuskasing here. So, Steven, I’d like to introduce you to Dave. The two of you guys should have a conversation because he might be able to supply you with some of the materials that you need as you move forward. I see your trailers around a lot, obviously, at construction sites. I know that you do more than just trailers. You’ve got modular homes as well. One of the programs that we have is, working with the federal government, we’re removing the HST for first-time homebuyers. Is there an opportunity, then, for your modular homes to be picked up more often so that we are building that marketplace, so to speak, for the first-time homebuyer on it, because the modular home process produces a less-expensive-to-buy home? And is there an opportunity for us to do something that would promote that in a way that makes it easier for that first-time homebuyer—because they can get into a very nice home at a much lower price point.

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06:30:00Official transcript

Mr. Steven Graham

I appreciate the question. Actually, I was at ROMA last week and had a chance to talk to a number of the northern mayors about some of their infrastructure challenges, and certainly there was no shortage of challenges that they’ve got. One of the interesting things we heard, in talking to small communities, is that they’ve often got the land but they don’t have the developer or the idea of what to do on that land. Certainly, we do build single-dwelling homes; we build six-storey apartment buildings as well, at all different price points. So if there’s a community that has land—because the land is obviously the more expensive component. If a first-time homebuyer had access to a service lot, then purchasing a modular house that could be delivered and dropped on that lot is certainly a cost-saving option. You’ve seen workforce trailers, which is great. That’s one type of product. I’ll just note that our homes don’t look anything like the trailers either in construction or physical appearance. They’re actually some beautiful homes at all different price points. I think you’re right—I listened to Minister Flack last week at ULI, where he talked about, “Ontario has to keep that dream of allowing every young person to buy their first house.” That certainly resonated with me, with three young boys who live in Ontario, because none of them can buy a house like I did when I was their age. So whatever we can do, whether that’s HST on first-time homebuyers, whether that’s some kind of cheaper land or other deferred development charges or taxes—there are a lot of options out there, and I think by coming together as a group and looking at those options, we can make that dream a reality for a lot of young folks.

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06:32:13Official transcript

Mr. Dave Smith

One of the things that has come up is that only about 5% of the new homes that are being sold are being sold as first-time homebuyer homes. You brought up a really good point: that the cost of land is one of the highest aspects of the build. And what I think we’re seeing, especially in southern Ontario, is that the cost of land and cost of servicing that land is so high that it’s not possible for a developer to get their money back out, if they’re looking at a $400,000-to-$550,000 home. If we find other ways to make it more affordable to start the construction—if we’re talking about a $300,000 or $400,000 expense before you put the shovel in the ground, you cannot possibly put a home on there that’s going to be less than probably $850,000 or $900,000, to cover your costs.

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06:33:14Official transcript

Mr. Dave Smith

So you make an excellent point—that some of the northern municipalities may have opportunities, then, to have some boon in the first-time homebuyer and attract people up into northern Ontario, where we’re going to need a much larger workforce than we currently do have. Would you agree—

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06:33:37Official transcript

Mr. Steven Graham

Workforce housing is a great option for temporary folks. But when I’ve talked to some mayors, they say, “We don’t want workforce housing. We don’t want transients who will come in and spend two weeks in, two weeks out. We want houses for families with spouses and kids, who come and live and grow in our communities.” So I think it’s through a combination of both of those—maybe it’s a workforce housing solution up front, while we build their permanent housing in behind; show people how great it is to live in northern Ontario, and then they’ll want to stay and move their families up, and then we need to have an affordable house for them. Certainly, if the house in Kapuskasing is cheaper than the house in Kingston, then you’re going to have people come.

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06:34:38Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

I’m going to continue with Mr. Graham. Forgive my ignorance, but—I see ATCO trailers all the time; I see ATCO workforce housing—I honestly wasn’t aware that ATCO built what I would say would be permanent modular housing. I get that it would be faster. How much more economical is it, per square foot, than stick-frame? That’s your selling point, right?

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06:35:05Official transcript

Mr. Steven Graham

Not necessarily. We say we’re price-competitive. Again, it all depends on what you, the developer, want. We can build to all price points. Right now, there’s certainly an interest in affordable, attainable homes, and we absolutely do build to that price point. But if you, as a developer, are building a rental building, where modular comes in is the certainty—we stick to our schedules. I’m guessing most construction sites in southern Ontario were shut down the last few days—it was running full blast inside our factories. We’re not exposed to the elements. We can build faster. We can build quicker. If we can build your building and give you the keys in about 50% of the time, which is the average, then you’re going to start collecting rent on that building a lot sooner than you would otherwise. We do absolutely build houses. In fact, it was great to see the announcement in Toronto just a few days ago, announcing Dunn House phase 2 for Toronto. We built Dunn House phase 1. In fact, the seven buildings as part of the Toronto modular initiative were all built by us, and the feedback we’re getting is extremely positive. So we’re very keen. We’ve done lots in British Columbia, lots in Alberta, and we’re keen to spread that throughout Ontario. We think it’s a great mode. We’re much less disruptive in urban areas; we’re there for a lot less time, and we’ll give you, the owner, the keys a lot sooner than you would get them otherwise.

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06:36:57Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you. I’m going to skip Mayor Plourde, because I think we agree on too much, and that won’t work. I would like to go back to Megan, on the PADDLE Program. If the program folds—which you’re being very clear about—what happens?

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06:37:16Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

What happens to the people who are now served out of your program? Where do they go?

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06:37:23Official transcript

Ms. Megan Johnson

There is no comparable service. We have, throughout the last several years, worked with our sectoral partners in the area to see what could be done in terms of absorbing service. Their response is that they cannot do that. It will be at least a decade, and it will be much more expensive and much less intensive, because of the way the funding stream works for these types of programs within the developmental services. Does that make any sense?

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06:38:00Official transcript

Ms. Megan Johnson

Yes. Like I said about that mother—that’s not an isolated story. For example, another 90-year-old—well, she was probably mid-80s; let’s be real, or she’ll get upset. Oftentimes, during personal care, a person who doesn’t communicate traditionally might be hurt or have a sore or something—they were doing personal care in a bathtub. The caregiver touched the person in a way they didn’t like, and the person pushed. That caregiver fell to the ground and cracked open their head, crawled to a phone and said, “Get to my place. My son is going to drown.” It is abhorrent to me that we’re putting these people in these situations—these mothers and these adults. These are autonomous, amazing adults who can thrive in our communities. We just didn’t build for them. We didn’t plan. We shut down institutions, and we did not plan for people to actually live longer. That’s the reason why we shut them down—because people were literally losing years of their life.

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06:39:15Official transcript

Ms. Megan Johnson

They were being traumatized in ways that I can’t speak about today. Those are real people who are doing real things. These guys are working hard, and nobody has asked them what they need. I can tell you, with all of my being, that if you listen to people, you believe what they need and you provide that, it is 99% of the time more effective, and always less expensive and less harmful. I don’t know what the end of your question was there. I probably missed a piece.

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06:39:51Official transcript

Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you for your presentation. We all learned a lot. Thank you for all of your presentations.

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06:39:59Official transcript

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

That does conclude the panel. We want to thank all the participants for a great job done of preparing and presenting your presentation here. I’m sure it will be of great assistance as we move forward in making recommendations to the Minister of Finance to make a perfect budget for 2026. This concludes the hearings for today. Thank you for participating. As a reminder, the deadline for written submissions is at 6 p.m. on Thursday, January 29, 2026. That means that for anyone who has made a presentation, you can still make a written presentation if you have more things you would like considered. So we would be very appreciative of receiving that. The committee now stands adjourned until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, January 28, 2026, when we will resume public hearings in Thunder Bay.

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06:41:58Official transcript

Ms. Sandy Shaw (Hamilton West–Ancaster–Dundas / Hamilton-Ouest–Ancaster–Dundas ND)

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06:42:09Official transcript

Ms. Effie J. Triantafilopoulos (Oakville North–Burlington / Oakville-Nord–Burlington PC)

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