10:02 a.m.Official transcript
The committee met at 1002 in committee room 1.
Legislative Assembly of Ontario · Committee
Monday, October 5, 2026
Standing Committee on Heritage, Infrastructure and Cultural Policy · Room 1
The official transcript of the meeting, from Hansard, by heading. Ministers, officials and witnesses appear as the transcript names them; committees have no live transcript, so the record appears once the Assembly publishes it.
Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing
10:02 a.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
Good morning, everyone. The Standing Committee on Heritage, Infrastructure and Cultural Policy will now come to order. We are meeting to consider the 2026-27 estimates of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing for a total of two hours. We are joined today by staff from Hansard, broadcast and recording, and legislative research. From the ministry, we are joined by the Honourable Rob Flack, Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing; the Honourable Graydon Smith, associate minister; and Martha Greenberg, deputy minister, along with other staff from the ministry. As a reminder, the ministry is required to monitor the proceedings for any questions or issues that the ministry undertakes to address. I trust that the deputy minister has arranged to have the hearings closely monitored with respect to questions raised, so that the ministry can respond accordingly. Are there any questions from the members before we start? Seeing none, I am now required to call vote 1901, which sets the review process in motion. We will begin with a statement from the minister for up to 20 minutes. Minister, welcome, and the floor is all yours.
10:02 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Thank you, Chair. It’s great to be here. And thank you, all members—in particular, Jeff Beattie, who is our newest MPP in the Legislature, so welcome to the proceedings, MPP Beattie. I’m joined here today as well by our deputy minister, the associate minister and members of our senior team, who are here to help answer any questions we may have. My goal today is to not only show what this ministry spends, but what Ontarians get in return for our proposed 2026-27 total operating capital budget of nearly $1.8 billion. For me, estimates comes down to a simple question: Are we using these dollars responsibly, and are Ontarians seeing the results and benefits of that investment? Over the past several years, Ontario has seen enormous change, and with it, real challenges that touch everyone and everything we do as a government. People continue to choose Ontario. Businesses are investing and communities are growing. New jobs are being created. All the while, we are protecting Ontario as we navigate the uncertainty brought on by President Trump and his trade war against our country. Bringing certainty back to these uncertain times is the absolute focus of Premier Ford and this government. We also have a responsibility to make sure Ontario is building the homes and infrastructure needed for our communities to prosper. The status quo is no longer sufficient to navigate historically rapid population growth, interest rate shocks and unprovoked attacks on our economy. At the ministry, our work to protect Ontario and responsibly manage these investments is focused on these core priorities: —supporting the people who need them the most; —streamlining and supporting municipal government; —making housing more affordable; and —building more homes. Let me begin with our first priority, which is one of the most difficult challenges facing communities across this province, and that is homelessness. Let’s be clear: This is not an issue that affects one town, one city, one region or even one province. This is a pan-Canadian challenge. Communities across Ontario are seeing growing pressure on emergency shelters, supportive housing and homelessness services. Homelessness cannot be addressed by one ministry alone. It requires a coordinated approach across government, with health, social services and, yes, housing each playing an important role. We know municipalities are on the front lines working every day to support the people experiencing homelessness and, importantly, prevent people from falling into homelessness. No one government can solve this challenge alone; it requires national coordination guided by local expertise. To drive lasting, meaningful change, we need the federal government at the table, working in unison with every province and every territory in Canada. Ontario represents over half of Canada’s housing community stock, and I’m going to stop and repeat that again; it’s an important fact to remember: Ontario represents over half of Canada’s community housing stock—half of it, in this province alone. Our voice matters and now is the time for national leadership, shared responsibility and coordinated action, not one-off deals. Right now, as validated by the Financial Accountability Officer, over 200,000 households are supported by programs through this partnership. We are leading the discussion to build on this success. Over 25,000 households received housing and other assistance to help them exit homelessness in 2025-26, an increase of 65% from 2022-23. However, we all know there are still challenges. By some estimates, roughly 70,000 people are currently impacted by homelessness at some point in the year—not all at once, but at some point in the year. As the challenge evolves, our response must evolve with it. However, we need to address the entire housing continuum as we respond, from homelessness and supportive housing, through community and rental housing, all the way to home ownership. As the co-chair of the FPT housing forum, Ontario will take a leading role to help facilitate and negotiate a new deal. That gives us an opportunity to build a stronger national framework for housing and homelessness: one that provides the funding that matches the challenges before us, the flexibility to adapt to local concerns and stable, consistent long-term funding to support effective planning. That is the need. That’s what we’re striving to accomplish. These challenges do not respect provincial boundaries. If the federal government is going to be in the housing sector, they must be a strong and supportive partner in addressing these challenges. People who need help, along with supportive housing providers, should not have to navigate a maze of disconnected programs simply because governments have different jurisdictions. Together, I believe we can find new paths of success to provide those who exit homelessness new possibilities. National leadership doesn’t mean that we don’t also respond to the emergencies happening right here at home. This summer reminded us of that responsibility when unexpected extreme weather touched many areas of our province. Ontario is here to help when help cannot be provided through private insurance. That is where the Disaster Recovery Assistance for Ontarians program comes in. I want to be very clear about that distinction: DRAO is not and was never intended to be a replacement for insurance. Again, it’s not insurance. Insurance remains the first line of protection for insurable losses. DRAO provides a backstop for eligible losses from natural disasters that cannot reasonably be covered by private insurance. Our ability to respond depends on good communication and information from our municipal partners. Local governments understand what happens on the ground. The information they provide to our ministry is vital to our assessment. That local knowledge is critical to our ability to activate DRAO. We cannot act without it. Local leadership is vital to getting support to those who potentially qualify. This brings me to my second priority: streamlining and supporting municipal government. Together, we are reforming the way regional government works better to address urgent provincial needs or provincial priorities. In eight fast-growing regions, we are using the new regional head of council model to strengthen leadership and coordination on shared priorities. These regional heads will work with the locally elected councils to advance provincial priorities, including housing, infrastructure and economic growth. The individuals under consideration in the regions are expected to possess exemplary leadership skills and have been going through a rigorous ministry-led process to ensure the best person for the job is selected. As we know, Ontario is facing unprecedented challenges, and we need local leadership equipped with the right tools to drive meaningful results based on our shared provincial priorities. Another action we are focused on is tackling the affordability challenges that touch every corner of this province. Nowhere is that pressure felt more than in the cost of buying a new home—or a home, period. Owning a home remains a quintessential Canadian dream, and it is one that must never be allowed to extinguish. Despite our successes, it still takes too long and it costs too much to build housing in Ontario. We are constantly looking at ways to change this. That is why our government is driving down the cost of housing from multiple directions. We are streamlining official plans, site plan control and also the building code. Importantly, we temporarily eliminated the full HST on new home sales. These reforms are delivering measurable results driven by the HST rebate. And now, new home sales rose 130% year over year in the second quarter of 2026. But that’s not all. We are reducing development charges while investing in infrastructure, and we are putting money directly back in the pockets of people who buy new homes. The Development Charge Reduction Program is a major initiative we announced in March of this year. Through the $8.8-billion Canada-Ontario Partnership to Build, municipalities will receive funding to reduce development charges while building roads, water and waste water systems and transit needed to support new growth and replace aging infrastructure. Municipalities participating in the program are required to reduce development charges by 30% to 50% or more and maintain those reductions for at least three years. This is fundamentally a different way of thinking about growth. We know municipalities need infrastructure—an insatiable need. We also know that loading too much of that cost onto the front end of a new home makes the home more expensive and the project harder to build, hence more unaffordability. That is why we are using provincial and federal investment to help municipalities reduce these upfront costs. After all, there is only one taxpayer. We are also looking at new approaches to financing infrastructure. Bold, innovative ways, like the public water utilities model being advanced in Peel, are the direction we are heading. The objective is straightforward: create a sustainable model that finances water and waste water infrastructure over the long term—decades, if you will—rather than loading these costs on the upfront price of a new home. The old way of financing infrastructure is no longer sufficient for the scale of growth that Ontario is experiencing. We need to build out differently, we need to finance differently and we need to make sure infrastructure is in place when communities grow. Finally, our fourth priority ties all of this together: building more housing. Home ownership is not only one part of the housing continuum; it is the major part. That is why our rental strategy is so important. For too long, Ontario did not build enough purpose-built rental housing to keep pace with demand. We have changed that. Ontario is seeing the strongest pace of purpose-built rental starts in its history, and we are on track to surpass the 2025 record of 24,700 starts. In fact, purpose-built rental starts are up 41% this year alone. That’s historic growth, and it’s not happening by accident. In 2023, we removed the provincial portion of the HST on qualifying new-build rental housing, and we worked with the federal government to remove the full 13% on qualifying projects. We’ve given municipalities the flexibility to reduce property tax rates on new, multi-residential properties. If we want rents to become more affordable over time, we need more rental supply. With more supply, we create more competition. With more competition, we see lower rents—and, folks, it is working. Rents are coming down across Ontario. We know there is still more work to do. However, I remain confident in the direction we are headed, because we are not doing this alone. Working hand in hand with our municipal partners is crucial to our long-term success. Communities are built with everyone doing their part. Builders, not-for-profits, first responders and neighbours—they are built by people who choose to serve and communities who choose to lead and, importantly, by governments that choose to deliver. Every dollar in these estimates belongs to the Ontario taxpayers, and it’s our job to make sure each one is spent with a focused purpose that will deliver results. That is a standard our ministry team is committed to uphold. With that, I will thank you and turn it over to Minister Smith for his remarks.
10:10 a.m.Official transcript
10:10 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Chair. It’s great to be back before the committee. I think Bob Seger on his ‘Live’ Bullet album said, “It’s great to be back in Boston.” Well, it’s great to be back in committee. Maybe he was a little more—
10:10 a.m.Official transcript
10:10 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
Yes, maybe Bob was a little more excited than I am to be at committee, but it’s still pretty good. Listen, the minister has covered a lot of ground this morning. Sorry if I go over a bit of it again. I will try not to cover it too exactly, but I do want to put my own perspective on things and spend a few minutes talking about something that really sits at the heart of the work we do at municipal affairs and housing, and that’s building partnerships. One of the great pleasures of my role as associate minister is getting out across Ontario, sitting down with mayors, councillors, municipal staff, service managers, home builders, community leaders and more, and doing just that: building those partnerships. I’ve always believed, of course, you learn a lot more by sitting across the table from somebody and hearing what’s happening in their community than we do sitting behind these desks at Queen’s Park. This is important work, but Ontario is a big province and we’ve got to get out and see it and talk to people, because we know what works in Toronto might not be what works in Thunder Bay, might not be what works in North Bay, might not be what works in Huntsville—one of the great communities in my riding that I’m proud to represent in Parry Sound–Muskoka. Probably all of you know this, because I talk about it a lot, but I spent 16 years in municipal government before I came to Queen’s Park. I served as a councillor at both the town and regional level. I served as a mayor. I was the president of Ontario Small Urban Municipalities and the president of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. So I know what it’s like to sit on that side of the table and, in fact, I came directly from that role to an MPP here at Queen’s Park. The other thing I know is that residents like to call offices looking for answers, and that when they call, it’s sometimes a bigger challenge than the municipality can handle on its own, and so those are the opportunities where we all need to work together. I went through that as mayor of Bracebridge a couple of times, during significant flooding which damaged homes and properties across the community. We’ve seen communities in Ontario face those challenges, and they are significant ones. When somebody’s property is affected, when their home is damaged, when their business has been impacted, they don’t necessarily care what level of government is responsible for what; they just want to know somebody is going to be there to help. That’s why programs like the minister mentioned, the Disaster Recovery Assistance for Ontarians Program—or DRAO as everyone loves to call it, because yes, the world needs more acronyms—are important: to help those homeowners, those small business owners, tenants, farmers, not-for-profit organizations even, deal with costs following a natural disaster when those costs aren’t able to be recovered by available insurance. Actually, just recently, I announced some DRAO funding activations for this program, including some in my riding. That program continues to get out there and do good work. It’s just one example of our government doing what people expect to do when things go wrong, and it’s an example of what being a good provincial partner means to me too. As the minister also talked about, we’ve taken that same approach to housing and homelessness. Our municipal service managers across Ontario do incredibly important work on the front lines in their communities. They know their communities, they know where the pressure points are, they know who the people are that they need to serve, and they’re responsible for delivering those services that people depend on. Whether that’s homelessness prevention, emergency shelters, supportive housing or affordable housing, our role is to work with them and make sure they’ve got the tools and they’ve got the flexibility that they need to find solutions that make sense at a local level. Of course, we need to keep building. We need more homes of all kinds in communities across Ontario, and to do that, we need to get more barriers out of the way. Sometimes those barriers are financial. Sometimes those barriers are procedural. We need to make approvals faster and more predictable. We need to make sure that municipalities have the roads, the water and the waste water infrastructure they need to support growth. We’ve tackled all of that, but we also need to talk about affordability. Not only do we need to create the conditions to have that supply built, but someone has got to be on the other end to buy that home. We took that action with the federal government on the HST, and those are big numbers: $130,000 on a million-dollar home is a big number; $65,000 on a $500,000 home is a big number. No matter how you cut it, 13% is a big number that makes a meaningful difference to someone buying a new home. Our government will continue to do that work, to work with people to make sure that not only are the conditions there for them to buy that home, but the local governments that also are ultimately the ones that sign off on that building permit are ultimately the ones that say, “The subdivision in this place makes sense. This mid-rise in this place makes sense. We’ve taken the opportunity to continue to build our community.” I’ll tell you this: There was an old axiom—probably not invented by me, but certainly one I believe in—which is that if you’re not growing, you’re dying when it comes to municipalities. Municipalities simply must continue to grow. Cost pressures are real, but growth also brings opportunity, and that opportunity can be measured in myriad ways, not just in the opportunity to have more assessment to work with. So yes, from a financial point, communities need to continue to grow and raise that assessment base and be able to distribute the cost challenges that they have amongst a larger pie, but as communities continue to grow, it continues to promote the one thing that we all want for everybody, which is opportunity and prosperity. I come from a kind of a mid-size-town perspective, but my time in those organizations that I referenced earlier—
10:20 a.m.Official transcript
10:20 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
—certainly gave me a larger perspective and the ability to appreciate those things that are the same from one community to another: the need to grow, the need to manage that growth, the need to work with the provincial government and the provincial government to be a strong partner is paramount. That’s why I’m excited to be in this role with Minister Flack, to talk about the programs that we’re delivering today that do just that: that create the opportunity for communities to grow, that create the opportunity for Ontarians ultimately to generate prosperity in the place that they love to call home. Thank you, Chair.
10:20 a.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
Thank you very much. We will now move to the question-and-answer segment, in rotations of 15 minutes for the official opposition members, 15 minutes for the third party member, 15 minutes for the government members, for the remainder of the allotted time. As always, please remember to make your comments through the Chair. As the Chair, if a member seeks to reclaim the floor during their rotation while the minister is responding, I will recognize the member and allow them to reclaim the floor to ask a new question. For the deputy minister, assistant deputy ministers and ministry staff: Please state your name and title the first time you speak, so that the proceedings can be accurately recorded in Hansard. I will start with the official opposition. Go ahead, MPP Burch.
10:21 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Jeff Burch
Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning. Good morning, Minister, associate minister, staff. Before I start, I know you’ll join us in congratulating and thanking all of the candidates across Ontario who are out there knocking on doors and doing all the things we did when we were running municipally. It’s an important part of our democracy and I just wanted to thank all of the candidates that are putting themselves out there right now. My first question is about municipal procurement policies. On page 19 of the briefing book, under municipal governance, the Ministry says it will “monitor municipalities for the effects of tariffs and trade and tariff response plans including changes to procurement practices.” It also says it will identify municipalities needing support and provide “targeted and sector-wide capacity building.” We don’t see any specific dollar amount in the briefing for procurement assistance. The main action that’s taken place so far is the Premier has threatened to withhold funding from municipalities that don’t support the Buy Ontario policy. That’s fair. So my question, first of all, is: Will the province commit to providing specific funding, training or staff support to assist municipalities with this procurement practice?
10:23 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Thank you, MPP Burch. First of all, just to make sure we’re clear, the Premier did not suggest we were going to remove all municipal support, not at all. However, we do buy, I believe, $22 billion, as a province, combined. We procure a lot of things through our municipalities, and as such, we want to make sure that buy Ontario first, buy Canada second is a priority. I can say, for the most part—and I think the deputy would agree—I think we have a pretty good record in terms of that support, seeing what our municipal partners do. That being said, when there are cases where it’s not being followed, especially in these difficult times, we just want to make sure they understood that we’re watching, we’re going to measure, and we’re going to act if need be. Hopefully, we won’t have to do it. Deputy, do you want to maybe help me out with the specifics, please?
10:24 a.m.Official transcript
Ms. Martha Greenberg
Absolutely. Martha Greenberg, Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Buy Ontario applies to municipalities as it relates to fleet purchases as well as their capital infrastructure. Right now, we work very closely with the Ministry of Public and Business Service Delivery and Procurement. It is their directive, but we—of course, with the partnership and the relationship with municipalities—are supporting them on the training, exactly as you said, so our regional offices do a lot of training with all the municipalities. This is one area where, given that it’s new, we are working very closely with municipalities; we will work with them very closely following the municipal elections to ensure there is appropriate training. And we’re working right now to understand, should there be any cost pressures—we don’t know what those are at this point in time; I think it’s a bit too early to say. So we’re working with municipalities and we’re working with the association of municipalities to understand that.
10:25 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Jeff Burch
So there’s no specific estimate or amount of money that’s been set aside? Okay. Back to the minister: We just wanted to point out—and, as the opposition, we have been pointing out the provincial spending on American companies for things like school supplies, subway cars, highway maintenance, WSIB even. If the province expects municipalities to prioritize Ontario businesses, will the province cancel its contracts with American companies and select Canadian ones instead, to show leadership?
10:26 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Well, I’ll speak for this ministry and not other ministries, but I can assure you—and I believe Minister Smith will agree—that we are taking an all-of-government look at procurement, where buy Ontario and buy Canada is a focus. Again, I won’t speak specifically to other ministries or other procurement arms in government, but it is being investigated, it is being measured and it is being focused on with diligence and purpose.
10:26 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Jeff Burch
Before handing things to my colleague, I wanted to ask a question on the municipal disaster recovery assistance, which you referenced. On pages 83 and 86 of the briefing book, the ministry says both the MDRA Program and DRAO provide financial support following natural disasters, yet both programs carry only a $1,000 placeholder allocation for 2026-27, with additional funding dependent on program activation. The MDRA was activated for 14 municipalities in 2025-26, with $1.7 million paid out primarily following flooding. The ministry administered applications for nine disaster events and paid more than $850,000 to eligible applicants. So given the experience in St. Catharines, Niagara, Ottawa etc. that you’re familiar with, where recovery support has been slow and left municipalities and residents waiting for assistance, what is the province doing to reform and speed up the MDRA and DRAO approval processes, and ensure that municipalities and residents have more predictable and timely financial support after a disaster in the future? I know that you kind of pivoted to governance when you spoke, and I wanted to really focus on what the province is doing for its part on making the program more efficient and responsive to residents.
10:28 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Great question, and something, obviously, we’ve been dealing with quite a bit this summer. But let me begin. Ottawa, Niagara, Toronto and other regions in the province were hit with many extreme weather events this summer, and we understand the pain and concern it has caused families, absolutely. So we respect that. That being said, I think it’s important to know—and we’ll talk specifically about DRAO—what it is and what it isn’t. I think you’ll appreciate the fact that, I think on August 5, we sat down with the Niagara MPPs and our ministry gave an overview. On July 28, I believe, in Ottawa, and we did the same. What it isn’t is insurance. I think it’s misunderstood and, in some cases, miscommunicated. It is meant to be support where insurance doesn’t kick in. It is meant to cover overland flooding from rivers, not sewer backup. To give you an example—and the expert is right behind me here, in terms of Ms. Collins, but I will say this: I think—and correct me if I’m wrong, Helen—in Toronto, Ottawa and Niagara alone, there will be over a $1-billion payout from insurance. That’s $1 billion thus far. The first line of defence is to call your insurance broker and call your insurance provider, and that’s what we’ve always suggested people do. In Niagara specifically, what we saw was sewer backups—yes, terrible, hard, difficult, but DRAO is not insurance and I think people think it is, or maybe they think it should be, but today it isn’t. By the way, our DRAO mirror-images all other provinces in terms of what the program is.
10:30 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Jeff Burch
So would you say those programs, what happened, was exactly what should happen and that there’s no room for improvement? Or is there room for improvement—
10:30 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Look, there’s always room for improvement in everything we do, so I welcome any suggestions, any recommendations. I think you’ve seen me to be open and willing to listen and learn, so if there are things you can recommend to the government to do that make more sense—but remember, DRAO is not insurance. It was never intended to be. I had a call from a person in Ottawa. It’s actually a good story, because she phoned and said, “I’m quite upset that my neighbour didn’t get insurance.” She said, “I’ve had insurance since I first got married. It’s a great provider”—blah, blah, blah—“and I’ve got insurance and it’s covering my losses. But my neighbour is not getting the same loss coverage.” I said, “Okay. So the government should step in and cover what insurance could because your neighbour didn’t have good enough insurance?” “Well, yes.” I said, “Well, no. That’s going to just make insurance more costly for you.” We can’t control what people buy for insurance. And you’ve got to remember: DRAO is for overland flooding; it’s not for sewer backup.
10:31 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Jeff Burch
The municipalities in Niagara, for example, were critical of the program. Are you saying that it’s all a misunderstanding based on what the program should do, or is there room for improvement in terms of getting back to the municipalities and—
10:31 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
So, maybe, Helen, do you mind—Helen is best, because she deals with it day in and day out. The point is, we knew that there was flooding, number one. Number two, we contacted our municipal partners right away. There was constant communication and we—I’ll maybe let Helen walk you through specifically what it is and what it isn’t.
10:32 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Jeff Burch
I’d like to hand things to my colleague very soon to ask some questions on housing, so if you could make it—
10:32 a.m.Official transcript
10:32 a.m.Official transcript
10:32 a.m.Official transcript
Ms. Helen Collins
Sure. Helen Collins. I’m acting for Sean Fraser, the ADM of the municipal housing and operations division. There is certainly room for improvement in any program. I would never deny that. I would say we have worked quite closely with the affected municipalities, so that includes St. Catharines, Ottawa, Lincoln. We have sent Provincial Disaster Assessment Teams. They did not find uninsurable forms of flooding when they went to, for example, St. Catharines. In Ottawa, they did, and we did activate the program quickly. So there is certainly room for improvement, but we have worked closely with the municipalities. In answer to your first question that I heard originally about the placeholder amounts, the reason for that is that the spending on the programs varies very considerably from year to year, depending on the particular events that occur. We can’t predict that in advance, so we don’t set a budget for those programs. Payments are based on eligible costs. So the government does fund the programs; it’s just not based on a budget. It’s based on the needs in any particular year.
10:33 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Jeff Burch
Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you. I’m going to hand things to my colleague, Chair.
10:33 a.m.Official transcript
10:33 a.m.Official transcript
MPP Catherine McKenney
Okay, yes. Thank you, Chair, and nice to see everyone back in sunny Toronto. I just want to turn our attention to affordable housing. My first question is whether your provincial government or the ministry has begun negotiations yet with the federal government around the continuation of federal-provincial agreements under the National Housing Strategy. We know that they’re set to expire in 2028, the end of operating agreements, and there’s a lot of concern out there as to what that means when that cliff happens.
10:34 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Absolutely. So the quick answer is yes. It’s been an ongoing process. We recently had an FPT virtually, right after Labour Day, and basically set the stage to talk to the Minister of Housing, Gregor Robertson, to begin negotiations in earnest. We are waiting, frankly, for the federal budget, which we hope to see sometime this month or early November, at which time we have some tentative dates in November set aside where we’ll sit down in person and begin in earnest. That being said, it is crucial that we get a new deal, and quickly. I think I’ve been consistent in that narrative. I would also suggest that we need them to come to the table with other aspects to the deal, whether it be homelessness, and how and where Build Canada Homes can fit in a more logical way for the province. It’s a big country with different housing continuums. Each province is unique. We certainly are unique. But again, we play a major role in terms of the overall National Housing Strategy, and I’m going to do my very best to negotiate and facilitate the best deal possible.
10:35 a.m.Official transcript
MPP Catherine McKenney
Thank you for that, but I just want to focus on the end of operating agreements specifically. We know that when they expire, there’s still a need to operate these buildings. I sat on the board, actually, of Ottawa Community Housing, where we have more than 16,000 units that are operated by OCH. Thousands of people depend on these units for affordability. So I just would like to understand, of all of the units today that are affected by operating agreements that are expiring in 2026-27, how many will remain affordable? How many will continue to have an operating agreement moving forward?
10:36 a.m.Official transcript
10:36 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
I would say our hope is that all of them would be. That being said, I’m not going to preclude what negotiations will do or not do. I think the biggest risk, frankly, for the National Housing Strategy is not those dollars; it’s the Canada-Ontario Housing Benefit, the rent supplements. I think that is the big “COHB cliff,” as we call it, that we’re facing dead on, and we need to come up with an agreement. I can tell you that every single province and territory has been relentless in communicating that directly with the minister and his staff. So at the end of the day, I think we’ll get there; I really do. I’m confident. I can tell you the minister’s willing. I think the deputy would agree that there is a certain understanding and appreciation and absolute commitment to try and get this done. Will it look the same as it is today? No, and I hope it doesn’t, because I think we’ve complicated it, and I think we can do a better job. We’ve got funding streams that are complicated to qualify for, to understand, that we can simplify and make more effective—as I say, take the agreement and use the “stop, start, continue” method, and that’s exactly what we’re doing. It’s not going to be easy. We’re going to need more funding from the feds, frankly, and we can hopefully talk more about it this morning.
10:38 a.m.Official transcript
10:38 a.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
I’m sorry; we’re out of time. Moving on to the third party: MPP Shamji.
10:38 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
Good morning, everyone. It’s a pleasure to see the committee and the civil service here to discuss the estimates of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Minister, I listened very carefully to your remarks. I always do. I appreciate so many of the things that you have to say. One of the things I particularly appreciate from your remarks this morning was that we’re not just here to review the estimates of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, but also to show that Ontarians are getting results for the projected expenses of your ministry. I wanted to go back to a review of estimates almost exactly one year ago. You were sitting where you were, and I was sitting where I am, and I had asked you at that time about your government’s progress on achieving its flagship promise of building 1.5 million homes by 2031. In response to that, I’m going to read to you from the Hansard, verbatim, your answer. I had asked, “Are you still committed to building 1.5 million homes by 2031?” Your word for word answer was, “I’m not focused on 1.5 million new homes.” Well, a report came out on Friday—I believe it was Friday—in which the Toronto Region Board of Trade now says it is impossible to build 1.5 million homes by 2031. This year, your government is on track to building only 58% of its housing goal. Do you regret that statement? Do you stand by your belief that you are not focused on 1.5 million new homes?
10:40 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
I 100% stand behind that statement. I still do. I’m not focused on that number. I think you will appreciate that we are in unprecedented times, with headwinds from President Trump and tariffs like we’ve never seen. In fact, we ran an election on it. That being said, the housing industry, the housing sector, housing starts, when I took over as minister, were dead. Again, this is a crisis that’s not political. It’s across the country, especially in Ontario. It’s affordability; it’s uncertainty. I stand consistent. I’m consistent in what I still say. It costs too much and it takes too long to build housing in Ontario. We figured that out. We also understood that governments don’t build the houses—at least we don’t believe that government should build the houses. What we do believe is that we create the conditions to get those homes built, and that’s exactly what we’ve done. That’s what we’ve brought through important pieces of legislation, Bills 17, 60 and 98. I think they’re reducing the time it takes to get permits, reducing the time it takes to get shovels in the ground. We also introduced the HST and DCRP reductions. We’ve created a climate, the conditions to get homes built. We’re seeing sprouts of success. We’re not there yet; we acknowledge that. That being said, we are seeing progress. We are seeing results, especially, I might add, in the purpose-built-rental sector. So yes, I stand behind the fact that we are laser-focused today on getting the ship turned—it’s not an easy turn—so we can head in the right direction.
10:41 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
Minister, since 2018, there have been three housing ministers and successive years in which the number of houses built goes down, not up. You now tell me you 100% stand behind no longer fulfilling your government’s flagship promise of—
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
So do you stand behind the promise of building 1.5 million homes by 2031?
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
I am not focused on it. I’m going to remain not focused on it until we get the ship turned.
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
I am committed to building as many houses as we can humanly possibly build—not us, the—
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
That is a commitment the government made. I am committed to focusing on getting the results in place so that we can get more homes built faster.
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
10:42 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
I think it’s important to note that the bills that have been brought forward—the work that has been done under this minister and under our government as a whole to clear the path to get homes built, to work with those municipalities that I talked about earlier as partners in getting homes built—have never been stronger. We have successfully removed a huge amount of red tape from home building in this province. And it’s not a one side or the other, that only the builders are rejoicing or only the municipalities are rejoicing; we have brought everybody together at the table. When you look at a number of the announcements that we’ve made, who’s standing with the minister? The building community—
10:43 a.m.Official transcript
10:43 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
Municipalities are standing with the community, because they know that the steps that we’ve taken—with respect to the member, they know that the steps that we’ve taken—
10:43 a.m.Official transcript
10:43 a.m.Official transcript
10:43 a.m.Official transcript
10:43 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
What strikes me about that answer, Chair, is that even as the associate minister speaks about who is standing with him, he’s talking about the building community, developers, all of those people, but not the millions of Ontarians who are looking for a home. Now, we started out by listening to the minister saying that it’s not just important to talk about the estimates here, but actually making sure that Ontarians are getting value and results for the dollars that are getting spent. We now know they’re not getting 1.5 million homes by 2031. And in the minister’s last answer, he talks about passing this bill and that bill, which is all very wonderful—
10:44 a.m.Official transcript
10:44 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
—but what outcomes does this ministry have since he took over to show that there has been success in building more homes and getting more people into homes?
10:44 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Housing sales were up 130% in July. Housing starts are up. Purpose-built rental starts are up 41% year over year, a record in three years. We’re getting more homes built this year than we did last year, than we did the year before. We’re seeing progress, and I’ll stand behind the results thus far. Do we need more? Absolutely. Will we see more? I’m confident we will. But again, without the municipal partners, without the builders, without the success of all those who actually build the homes, we can’t get it done. They’re on side. I will say, the HST and the DCRP—
10:45 a.m.Official transcript
10:45 a.m.Official transcript
10:45 a.m.Official transcript
10:45 a.m.Official transcript
10:45 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
—that your own ministry’s data from an FOI report that was released and was published in the news just earlier this year, September 9, said Ontario is going to hit 58% of its 2025 housing goal, which stands in contravention of exactly what you said in terms of more houses being built. Despite everything—
10:46 a.m.Official transcript
10:46 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
Yes, exactly—58% of its 2025 target. Each successive year is worse than the last one. And even if you choose to measure in terms of not housing starts but housing sales, the Canadian Real Estate Association, citing Ontario MLS home sales, shows that this has been the lowest August for housing sales in 25 years. So again, what actual results can Ontario citizens look to to say that they have gotten value from your ministry?
10:46 a.m.Official transcript
10:46 a.m.Official transcript
10:46 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Respectfully, they create the conditions to get results. Again, governments don’t build the homes. We’re here to create those conditions. HST removal on all new home starts is having a positive effect. The DCRP is just getting rolled out now. It’s going to have a positive effect. It can lower the price of a home by up to $200,000 on a million-dollar home being built. I would say that’s a very good result. That’s a very good effort. That’s very good focus. It will help immensely in building the homes we need across Ontario.
10:47 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
Thanks, Minister. I must admit, I reject the notion that introducing legislation should be allowed to count as results and process towards delivering on your promises, because this government, since 2018, has introduced at least 10 or 11 pieces of legislation which have usually led to fewer houses being built. As I tried to prepare for today and ask myself, “What is it possibly that could be leading to such disappointing results under your government’s leadership?”, it actually struck me. A short while ago, your government introduced strong-mayor powers, ostensibly for the purpose of building more homes. Then I just learned that the mayor of Windsor, Mayor Dilkens, who chairs your Housing Supply Action Plan Implementation Team, actually plans on using those strong-mayor powers to block the introduction of fourplexes in his community. How is it possible that the person who chairs your Housing Supply Action Plan Implementation Team is using powers that have been given to him for creating more homes—how is it someone like that could be using that to build fewer homes, and how do you have confidence in someone who is actively working against your stated goal?
10:48 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Well, I don’t agree that he’s working against the stated goal at all. He’s done a great job as mayor and continues to support our provincial priorities. Local issues in local communities are up to them. We have—what is it, Deputy? As-of-right—
10:48 a.m.Official transcript
10:48 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
As-of-right three across the province. That’s a local decision, and they’re agreeing to do that there. So I will defer that answer to Mayor Dilkens. He’s doing a great job and has been a great chair on our housing supply action committee.
10:49 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
Chair, I’ll just jump in, if I may. Communities still need to be able to make choices that they feel are in the best interest of their community. As a former mayor, I can tell you that we always worked on the theory of managed growth to make sure that we could respect those in the community and the voices that they brought to the table while at the same time meeting provincial priorities. That is critical.
10:49 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
Thank you very much. So if the entire Windsor council believes it’s in their community’s best interest to allow fourplexes and a single person using powers that were supposed to build more homes used those instead to build fewer homes and go against his council speaking in support of his own community, would you step in to make sure that more homes are built?
10:50 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
First of all, I’d just say you’re talking in a misnomer. You’re assuming that because zoning would be allowed or a certain housing type would be allowed, that housing type would actually be built, and you cannot draw that correlation from A to B. You wanted to talk about—
10:50 a.m.Official transcript
10:50 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
Well, you wanted to talk about results before, and we know that local mayors are able to make decisions that are in the best interests of their community to generate the results that work best for their community. That’s why they have the authority to do that.
10:50 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
And, by that extension, you presume that councillors do not act in the best interest of their community?
10:50 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
We have created an opportunity for communities and mayors in those communities to make decisions in the best interests of those communities, in the best interest of what they see fit, and mayors are the leaders in communities, make no mistake about it. Council and mayors work together very, very closely; ultimately, it’s the mayor at the end of the day that’s the leader in the community.
10:51 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
I note that the housing tracker providing data on municipalities meeting their targets hasn’t been updated since 2024, so perhaps you could provide an update now. How many municipalities across Ontario are on track to achieve their housing targets?
10:51 a.m.Official transcript
10:51 a.m.Official transcript
Ms. Martha Greenberg
I can speak with respect to the Building Faster Fund, which was how we measured the 50 who were given housing targets. This past year was the final year of the Building Faster Fund. It was a three-year program. You’re going to have to bear with me as I count: 18 municipalities received funding under the Building Faster Fund for this past year.
10:51 a.m.Official transcript
10:51 a.m.Official transcript
Ms. Martha Greenberg
Absolutely. Belleville, Brantford, Chatham-Kent, Greater Sudbury, Kingston, Kitchener, London, Milton, North Bay, Peterborough city, Pickering, Richmond Hill, Sarnia, Sault Ste. Marie, St. Catharines, Thunder Bay, Waterloo and Welland.
10:52 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
Thank you. The Building Faster Fund is budgeted at $108.7 million this year, but most municipalities are in fact missing their targets because of market conditions outside of their control—and within yours. How much of that $108.7 million does the ministry expect to pay out this year, and to how many municipalities?
10:52 a.m.Official transcript
10:52 a.m.Official transcript
Ms. Martha Greenberg
Out of the municipalities that I listed, that is approximately $60 million. There are a few that we will continue to work with—so what I read out of the ones that are confirmed. Sometimes a municipality may have some different data sources that we go back and confirm, and so we won’t have the final number until we finish going through any sort of checks on data.
10:52 a.m.Official transcript
10:52 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
They go into the DCRP. All the funds, through the whole program, if they weren’t awarded, went back into infrastructure funding models that we used throughout the province throughout those three years.
10:53 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Adil Shamji
Okay. In what ways do you plan on, if at all, extending and improving the Building Faster Fund?
10:53 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
The Building Faster Fund will not be extended. Instead, we introduced the $8.8-billion development charge reduction program to directly work with municipalities that applied to get part of that funding, which is more stable, longer-term. It’s paid out over 10 years. They have to lower their DCs 30% to 50% for a minimum of three years, so that is the model which we’re going to follow.
10:53 a.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Hon. Laurie Scott)
Thank you, Minister. We’re out of time for the third party. We’ll go to the government side. MPP Beattie, I personally welcome you to the SCHICP committee.
10:53 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Jeff Beattie
Thank you, Chair, and through you: Thank you, Minister, for the presentation, and thank you for all the hard work that you’re doing on this file. As you alluded to and as you made note of, I’m coming fresh from the municipal sector in Hamilton, where some of the very programs that you’re speaking of have delivered and are having some big results, and we’re very thankful for that. But I wanted to pull it back, if I could, to the National Housing Strategy. There was some early conversation that we were having here, and I think that we can all agree we want to make sure that the program is delivering meaningful results for Ontarians who need support today. Of course, I’m speaking of people who are at risk of homelessness, of people who are in specific categories—seniors, veterans, Indigenous peoples, people with disabilities and those fleeing violence, for example. I’m wondering if you could drill down a little more deeply, Minister. As Ontario works with the federal government on this renegotiation process for the National Housing Strategy, what would success look like to you for our province, and what changes would you be looking for to ensure that the federal funding program is flexible, responsive and focused on helping people across Ontario access housing while it strengthens our communities and provides more benefits for local housing systems?
10:55 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
Thank you for that question. I’ll answer it from a ministry perspective, but then maybe I’ll turn it over to Minister Smith to talk from a more local or municipal perspective in terms of what success will look like, and talk maybe a little bit about our service managers and how we deliver some of these programs. What does success look like? Well, first of all, we want to make sure we negotiate a new deal, because, as I said to MPP McKenney, we have a COHB cliff coming. We need to get a deal in place, otherwise there’s 32,000-plus families in this province—and I think there’s about 3,000 each year, 10% more coming on to the roll, so to speak, that will rely on that type of support. We have to get a new deal, and again, I’m confident that we will. So what will a new deal look like? First of all, I’ve said it all along: I believe there needs to be more federal money directly in support of homelessness across our province and across our country. Build Canada Homes is a great initiative; I think it needs to be part of the National Housing Strategy. I’m giving you my opinion here. I’m not necessarily going to get everything I want, but what would success look like in my mind? Build Canada Homes is a great program. It’s capital investment. It is not operating dollars, which is great, but where does the operating funding come from? We have to become in sync with the province and the federal government in terms of announcements and how that looks. So a new deal, more money for homelessness and how BCH fits in are key to our success. One of the things that I think we’ve done well through the Homelessness Prevention Program is emergency support. Emergency support is great, but it’s very, very expensive. What we need to do is make sure that going forward, more of those dollars, in conjunction with the National Housing Strategy or deal, go towards shelters, goes towards wrap-around services, because acute care is not the place for people who require care. Homelessness should not be in the hospitals—unless, obviously, very much needed. So we need to redirect those dollars, if we can there. I’m going to emphasize this again; I think it’s an important point: Over half of Canada’s housing stock exists in the province of Ontario, and there is a need today—this is where BCH can come in, as well—to repair and maintain that stock. It’s 60 to 70 years old in some cases. I think MPP McKenney would know; you’ve got some aging infrastructure out there. There’s a $12-billion deficit, I’m told by the community housing providers, that needs to be invested in these facilities, and if we do so, we can bring them up to repair and add some capacity, and maybe that’s a solution that we can look at. That’s a big part of what I look at. Finally, I think we need that funding to continue with the COHB, the Canada-Ontario Housing Benefit. That has to be in there. That’s almost the first box we check when we have a new deal. Minister?
10:58 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Graydon Smith
I think any structure for a new deal needs to look at what the old deal has done in terms of the positive outcomes in Ontario and build off that. We have an opportunity, as the minister said, to have conversations with the federal government about where the tweaks can be made. Ultimately, money that gets spent—as you know, being a municipal councillor at that level—is a bit of a stew of federal, provincial and municipal dollars. Delivering these services isn’t always all about dollars and cents, but they sure help for certain things getting done and getting looked after. Specifically around homelessness and homelessness prevention work, it has been a significant issue for communities for the last number of years, so bringing that into the fold is part of the conversation and is very much necessary. But I don’t think there’s any doubt that the programs as they exist today have been largely effective when delivered by our local service managers. As I talked about in my opening comments, you see tweaks here and there for what works best in any one given area. The program can mean one thing in a large city, it can mean another thing in a smaller town, and it can mean something else again in the vast areas of northern Ontario, where help is needed too. I think we’re certainly on the right track. I’m pleased that Minister Flack is chairing that group this year and able to engage directly with Minister Robertson and have the conversations that reflect the need on the ground in Ontario, based on what we’ve learned over the last number of years.
11:00 a.m.Official transcript
Hon. Rob Flack
The one thing I would just wrap up with is, there are some really good things we do through the National Housing Strategy—I think, Deputy, you would agree—that bring great benefit to the people of Ontario that need it. That being said, I’m a great believer in the whole exercise of stop, start, continue. Let’s stop doing what isn’t working and change it. Let’s start doing what we need to do better and come up with new, innovative solutions, like I talked about with Build Canada Homes, potentially, and let’s continue doing what’s working. I can tell you there’s a willingness throughout all provinces and territories and the federal government to come up with a deal. We’re hoping that our message was sent to Minister Robertson loud and clear, and we’ll see what comes out of the federal budget, hopefully in the next few weeks.
11:01 a.m.Official transcript
11:01 a.m.Official transcript
11:01 a.m.Official transcript
Mr. Aris Babikian
Thank you, Ministers, Deputy Minister and staff for coming and sharing your input, insight and time with us. We know that families and young people are facing the pressure of housing costs. And we know as a government that to eliminate costs, we need to explore different options. One of the options that we came up with was removing the development charges from construction, so that we have removed barriers to families to purchase houses. Our government has been working with municipalities to reduce development charges, while also making investments in the infrastructure needed to support the new communities. Minister, can you explain how the development charges removal/reduction is helping municipalities lower these costs, get more homes built and make housing more affordable for Ontario families?