Legislative Assembly of Ontario · Committee
Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs
The official transcript of the meeting, from Hansard, by heading. Ministers, officials and witnesses appear as the transcript names them; committees have no live transcript, so the record appears once the Assembly publishes it.
Read from the beginning of the meeting
MPP Wayne Gates
From your perspective, how has the government’s failure to invest adequately in marine infrastructure limited Ontario’s ability to shift goods from trucks to low-carbon shipping, which is important for our environment?
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
I can’t say how it’s done, I can just tell you that we have a program that looks at low-carbon initiatives within the St. Lawrence Seaway. We adopt the Green Marine strategy, if you’re familiar with that, which is also driving to respond to one of our environmental programs.
MPP Wayne Gates
Just because I’ve only got a couple of seconds, and we’ll give you a chance to answer. How many employees do you have at the seaway?
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
At the seaway? It fluctuates, but right now it’s about 485, plus or minus 10 depending on—
MPP Wayne Gates
Okay, well thanks for being here today, and take good care of my buddy Sam, all right?
MPP Stephanie Smyth
Thank you so much. It’s nice to hear from all of you today. Just thinking about the seaway in the wintertime makes me feel chills. But, hey, if you could get things moving all year round, what would that take? What kind of investment would it take, do you think, to see that actually happen?
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
In the long term? We operate right now—I’m just going to put it in perspective—in millions. To do that is probably in the billions, to make it happen year-round with minimal ice conditions. Because it’s not just the seaway; it’s all the other agencies that are required, too, right? We use the coast guard. We use the pilotage services. We use—well, two pilotages. And it’s not just us. Just to be clear, there are two US locks. It’s a binational seaway, and therefore we have to negotiate and work with our US partners to make an extension of the season to year-round navigation possible.
MPP Stephanie Smyth
And in peak time, what’s the traffic like on the seaway in terms of ships and—
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
The Welland Canal, on an average peak day, will see 18 to 20 vessels go through a day. On a busy day, after a wind event, you can see up to 25, 26. Full throughput is 24 a day. It’s what we plan on.
MPP Stephanie Smyth
Wow. So what do you see as some infrastructure investments that you would see as being required to at least maintain the seaway’s competitiveness?
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
Well, right now, it’s really the reinvigoration of a lot of the infrastructure, particularly in the Welland. The Welland Canal is 100 years old. We do a very good job of assessing and providing our assessment to the government for their valuation and funding because they own the assets; we just manage them. So those types of reinvigoration. Bridge 5: Like I mentioned, there’s capacity there to grow with the community. We’re in the process right now of looking—we’ve got a life extension. We have a three-year project for life extension of bridge 5, but that’s just keeping it going. It does need replacement, and so that’s why we would see that into the future. And just on the side, there was an earlier question on bridge 5, if I may. I just was looking through my notes. There was a question on the cost of bridge 5. Right now, the current estimate is a two-lane bridge is going to cost $170 million. And to put it to a four-lane bridge, which would serve the community better, would cost $250 million. Therefore, the net difference, the incremental difference we’re looking for, is $80 million to serve the community better for the long term. It’s a single investment for another 100 years.
MPP Stephanie Smyth
So right now, for Wharf 18, you need $45 million. You have $22 million from the feds.
MPP Stephanie Smyth
That’s a lifetime. Okay, a quick question: How would capital investments in the seaway translate into economic returns for Ontario, for people who aren’t—
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
All the investment in the seaway infrastructure—to give you an example, this year we’re going to spend $38 million to $40 million in the Niagara region. That will employ about 200 trades, contractors, our people, for about eight weeks.
MPP Stephanie Smyth
Okay. Thank you. I want to move to Sarah with Parks and Recreation Ontario. I’m an MPP from Toronto, Toronto–St. Paul’s. Talking about the overall state of parks and all the facilities, where does Toronto rank in terms of the need for improvement in the infrastructure that we have in our parks?
Ms. Sarah Ane
I wouldn’t be able to answer that question right now. I would have to get some additional data and information specific to Toronto. Obviously, they are our largest member in Ontario, so we work quite closely with the city of Toronto. Certainly, we know, even looking at the school board conversation that’s been happening in Toronto and the aging infrastructure in swimming pools in Toronto being such a hot topic, that you’re not exclusive. You’re not in a position where you don’t have this issue.
Ms. Sarah Ane
And then also looking at outdoor space for green space; how, as you’re building up and intensifying, you’re ensuring there’s appropriate green space in that community as well.
MPP Stephanie Smyth
You said so many communities have served past their lifespan. Just overall, biggest ask, you say 82% of requested dollars able to be funded. So what are you looking for right now of critical importance in prioritizing with this government today?
Ms. Sarah Ane
We are looking for the Community Sport and Recreation Infrastructure Fund to reopen in 2026, as soon as possible, with additional funding. Our recommendation is $1 billion. We have a $9.5-billion backlog in Ontario right now. In this infrastructure alone, we rank second only to roads. We are not going to make a dent with $200 million, unfortunately. We are going to need additional help from both upper levels of government—
The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)
Thank you very much. That concludes the time. MPP Brady.
Ms. Bobbi Ann Brady
Sarah, I’ll move over to you. I think you were here when the Niagara Home Builders’ Association was presenting. In response to one of my questions, the delegate said that we have to focus on needs, not wants and desires, and we should be exercising fiscal conservatism—no pun intended. But it’s not the time, he says, to invest in fancy arenas and recreational facilities. So I’m asking you, is there a way to empower participation without having to invest in fancy facilities?
Ms. Sarah Ane
That’s a great question. Thank you. We absolutely at PRO and all of our members support homebuilding. People need homes to live in, but they also need complete communities where they can get outside, enjoy green space as well as recreate with one another. We know the benefits of recreation in people’s lives both from the health and social aspects. We saw it during the pandemic. So, my response to that would be that we can’t build a complete community without this infrastructure. It’s not just houses and pipes in the ground. Those are all important things and we need those, but we also need this infrastructure to be coupled with it or we will risk social isolation, we will risk chronic disease, we will continue to see all of those things rampant in our communities. The other MPP made a great comment about seniors and older adults being able to age in place at home. All of the things we offer through parks and recreation help them to do that. We want to give opportunities to youth to keep them busy and active in our communities, making the right healthy choices. So if we don’t have this infrastructure, what will happen? What choices will those people have?
Ms. Bobbi Ann Brady
I’m glad you mentioned green space, and I think that is a fiscally responsible way to expand recreation in our communities. But we do have a government who has passed a number of MZOs in this province. I’m just wondering, does that impact park space in Ontario? Does it erode the parkland dedication and community benefit charges that municipalities rely on to maintain and expand recreational opportunities in their communities?
Ms. Sarah Ane
Thanks for that question. We’ve been very grateful to be seated at the table with MMAH over the last number of years, along with community stakeholders, to have that conversation around parkland dedication, the changes in legislation, as well as publicly owned private spaces, encumbered parkland—all the challenges that we have heard and seen continue to be in place and how we can ensure that legislation reflects how we are building our communities—
The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)
Thank you very much. That concludes the time. MPP Racinsky.
Mr. Joseph Racinsky
Thank you to all the presenters for coming this afternoon. Anand, nice to see you again. I think we had a little chat at a different committee a few months ago. For my question, I’m going to talk to the St. Lawrence Seaway. It’s great to hear the enthusiasm from some of the opposition members about our shipbuilding and maritime systems in Ontario. It’s a priority for this government as well—$250 million committed so far to support Ontario’s shipbuilding and broader marine sector. Last year, we announced the $15-million Ontario Shipbuilding Grant Program so that we can get more shipbuilding happening in the province. Assuming this grant has the intended effect of seeing more shipbuilding take place in Ontario, does your organization see yourself equipped to handle that growing sector in the medium term?
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
Yes. The shipbuilding we can handle. Ontario Shipyards is at Port Weller, which is a leased land from the St. Lawrence Seaway. As they grow, there’s land there to be developed if they wish to grow their business and accommodate the growth in the shipbuilding industry, for sure.
Mr. Joseph Racinsky
The port regions across Ontario are also vying for support in Canada’s maritime and defence needs, outlined in the National Shipbuilding Strategy. Is there a role for your organization in this? If so, what does that look like?
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
The main role would be just enabling the shipbuilding industry to run their dry docks, facilitate the ins and outs of ships. We are not in the shipbuilding industry per se, but we are partnered with that in the sense that, when they launch the vessels, if they happen to do it on the St. Lawrence Seaway, we work with them. For instance, Ontario Shipyards at Port Weller, Lock 1, we often have to stop traffic so they can move their ships in and out. We always do that; that’s a part of our normal business. So we help enable their business.
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
We have investment opportunities in Port Weller. It’s part of our program. Just off the top of my head, I don’t know what they are, but I can tell you that we do have. It was the original docks that built the Welland Canal. All the gates you see there were built where Ontario Shipyards is today. I know that there’s mechanical investment that needs to happen, electrical investment—just general improvements, cranage, etc. Make it a more viable shipyard than it is today. It’s viable, but more could be done. There could be more added. The cranes and stuff that were operating have not been in use for decades and some of them are still there. Some of them they’ve taken down. But if that’s what they need, we’re willing to work with them as the landowner. Our representative for the government of Canada—we’re willing to work with them to see what those initiatives are and make it happen.
Mr. Joseph Racinsky
Thanks. You know, I grew up in a bit of a nerdy family, so for a day trip, we would go and see the locks on the canal. That would be what we would do as a day trip.
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
So did I, as a little kid. I never thought I’d be running the place.
Mr. Joseph Racinsky
No, it was a few years ago, but not too many years ago. Our government is also really focused on resilience, economic competitiveness in the face of international trade challenges. How can we better collaborate with you to attract greater economic activity and offset the economic difficulties we’re facing as a nation through an organization like yourself?
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
Well, I think with the reach of the provincial government, it’s just supporting the carriers and the shippers. The shippers own the goods that the carriers carry through the seaway. So supporting all those levels that make the supply chain happen is paramount to grow the economy.
Mr. Dave Smith
Thanks, Chair. I appreciate that. Anand, don’t take this as we weren’t interested in what you had to say. One of the things that has happened during the committees is we’ve had some exceptional presentations that actually explained their entire concern or issue in a way that didn’t generate a whole lot of questions. The fact that we haven’t reached out and asked you a bunch of questions is because you did a really good job on it. It’s something that I think most of us wouldn’t have considered what you’re suggesting on it. One of the concerns that I’m sure is going to come back to us is, if we go down the path of automation on that, it would mean a reduction of some of the municipal staff. But you pointed out they could be transitioned into other priorities that the municipality could work on. Can you expand on that for me?
Mr. Anand Misir
Yes. People are paid to do a job. They work their shift and if half or a third of their shift is spent doing something that’s outside of their job description, like doing manual entry and fixing errors that happen out of manual entry, then they can’t do their job to the best of their ability. So you’re not getting rid of people because of automation; you’re letting them do their job more efficiently and serve more residents than they would have if they had to continue doing these manual processes. Everywhere we have deployed—
The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)
Thank you very much. That concludes the time. He gave you some time, but not a lot. We’ll go to MPP Bell.
Ms. Jessica Bell
Thank you to all the speakers for coming in here today and sharing your expertise and outlining your request. My first question is to Sarah from Parks and Recreation Ontario. I had the unfortunate situation of going through the pandemic, raising two kids in a 1,000 square foot apartment, so let me tell you, parks were a lifeline—like a lot of people who live in big cities. One of the questions I have is around what you’re seeing the impact of development fee changes have been on the ability to create new parks and maintain existing parks. In the city of Toronto, we were pretty significantly affected by Bill 23, where we did see a reduction in the amount of funding available for parks. I’m wondering if you’ve seen those kinds of impacts in your work.
Ms. Sarah Ane
Thank you for that question. That was a very important bill, obviously, to our members when it was first introduced. There was a lot of great concern about what that would mean for the ability to collect the development charge fees appropriately and maintain existing parks, expand current parks and build new ones. As I mentioned earlier, we were very grateful to be invited to the table by the ministry to have discussions around that legislation as well as revisions to that legislation over the last couple of years. I don’t think that we have solved all of our concerns at this point, but we are being listened to. I appreciate that very much, and I know our members do as well. So we’re happy to be at the technical advisory table with the ministry, having ongoing conversations around parkland dedication, fees and ways that we can continue to ensure that we have the money that we need to provide these important pieces for all communities, regardless of size. Certainly, our urban members felt that much more so than our rural members have, but we represent communities of all sizes in Ontario. It’s a very important topic and issue for us.
Ms. Jessica Bell
Yes, certainly. In Toronto—that’s the area I represent—there are only so many parks. Every day, there are more and more people moving into the city, and there are less and less places for them to go walk their dog, take their kid out, recreate. We’re being squeezed. There’s just less and less recreational space. So thank you for your work. I want to clarify around your ask. It was a $1-billion ask for the community recreation fund. Is that over a period of time?
Ms. Sarah Ane
Our ask a couple years ago, before the Community Sport and Recreation Infrastructure Fund, was actually $1 billion annually for 10 years to eradicate the current deficit, which is that $9.5-billion figure that I’ve shared that exists in Ontario. The $200 million was a great start but certainly wasn’t going to be able to eradicate that issue that we have with infrastructure for our members across Ontario. So our ask remains the same, for $1 billion to that fund so that we can continue to see these facilities either renovated and rehabilitated to continue the lifespan of what’s left of them or to have new builds added for spaces that maybe don’t have something currently.
Ms. Jessica Bell
Thank you for that. We spent a lot of energy in the last school board budget season encouraging the government—and that’s saying it politely—to ensure that there was enough funding available to maintain existing swimming pools because many of them are under threat of being closed. Thank you for your work. My second question is to D’Arcy Wilson from the St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corp. Thank you so much for being here. Being educated by your presentation—I enjoyed that. I’m increasingly hearing that, with the very dramatic changes to our global trading system, the fissure in our working relationship and trading relationship with the United States, there is a real need for us to reorientate our transportation systems so that we are going less north and south, which is how our transportation systems are oriented for trade, and more east and west so we can get our products out to new markets.
Ms. Jessica Bell
Are you involved in these conversations? And for us to do that, what are you advocating for?
Mr. D’Arcy Wilson
Firstly, we have, again, our marketing department. Commercial departments are involved in those conversations because it’s very much a competitive market. As you mentioned, the north-south—it’s amazing, the number of people, when we go and talk to shippers out west, particularly in the States, that only think north-south on the Mississippi-Ohio River system. And then we open the conversation: “Have you thought about the east-west?” We saw the advantage of the east-west as the seaway: its reliability, its availability. We did get some business that has moved. If there are issues in the United States system, they move. But—
The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)
Thank you very much. That concludes the time. It just goes to show how great a meeting it was, but that’s the end of the panel, end of the meeting. We had to cut it off because we were still going. Thank you all for the time you took to prepare, all the panellists in this panel. It’s a great assistance to us as we proceed with our public consultations, so thank you very much. This concludes the public hearings for today. I want to thank everyone for their participation. As a reminder, the deadline for written submissions is at 6 p.m., Thursday, January 29, 2026. This is also for the presenters, so if you have more to add, you’re quite welcome to send that in and that will be considered. I believe MPP Kanapathi wanted to say a few words.
Mr. Logan Kanapathi
Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to say thank you to the committee and, especially, thank you to the staff. I’ll start with the Clerks: They organized the venues and food and things on the western side of Ontario. We also had nice pre-consultation meetings in the eastern part of Ontario. Look at the room: all the sound, recording, research, Hansard—all amazing people and a good team. Chair, I’d also like to thank my colleagues from all sides for their voices and standing up for the people of Ontario. I really commend your work, especially—I call him my Niagara MPP—Wayne Gates. He’s a rebel, a fighter. And also, a special thank you to Dave Smith. I know he’s going through pain. He lost his mother a couple of weeks ago. He’s shown his commitment to this government and the committee and the ministry. Thank you, Dave. Thank you, my colleagues.
The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)
Thank you very much for your kind comments. Are you suggesting you’re not going to go with us next week?
Laughter.
The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)
With that, the committee now stands adjourned until 10 a.m. on Tuesday, January 27, 2026, when we will resume public hearings in Kapuskasing, Ontario.
The committee adjourned at 1657.
STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
Chair / Président
Hon. Ernie Hardeman (Oxford PC)
First Vice-Chair / Première Vice-Présidente
Ms. Doly Begum (Scarborough Southwest / Scarborough-Sud-Ouest ND)
Second Vice-Chair / Deuxième Vice-Président
Mr. Rob Cerjanec (Ajax L)
Ms. Doly Begum (Scarborough Southwest / Scarborough-Sud-Ouest ND)
Ms. Bobbi Ann Brady (Haldimand–Norfolk IND)
Mr. Rob Cerjanec (Ajax L)
Hon. Ernie Hardeman (Oxford PC)
Mr. Logan Kanapathi (Markham–Thornhill PC)
Mr. Joseph Racinsky (Wellington–Halton Hills PC)
MPP Bill Rosenberg (Algoma–Manitoulin PC)
Mr. Brian Saunderson (Simcoe–Grey PC)
Ms. Sandy Shaw (Hamilton West–Ancaster–Dundas / Hamilton-Ouest–Ancaster–Dundas ND)
Mr. Dave Smith (Peterborough–Kawartha PC)
Ms. Effie J. Triantafilopoulos (Oakville North–Burlington / Oakville-Nord–Burlington PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Ms. Jessica Bell (University–Rosedale ND)
MPP Wayne Gates (Niagara Falls ND)
Also taking part / Autres participants et participantes
MPP Stephanie Smyth (Toronto–St. Paul’s L)
Mrs. Jennifer (Jennie) Stevens (St. Catharines ND)
Clerk pro tem / Greffière par interim
Ms. Thushitha Kobikrishna
Staff / Personnel
Mr. Alex Alton, research officer, Research Services