Monday, September 28, 2026

The committee met at 1001 in room 151.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs to order. We’re meeting to consider the 2026-27 estimates of the Ministry of Labour, Immigration, Training and Skills Development for a total of two hours. We are joined by staff from Hansard, broadcast and recording, and legislative research. From the ministry, we are joined by the Honourable Trevor Jones, Minister of Labour, Immigration, Training and Skills Development, ministry officials and staff. As a reminder, the ministry is required to monitor the proceedings for any questions or issues that the ministry undertakes to address. I trust that the deputy minister has arranged to have the hearings closely monitored with respect to questions raised so that the ministry can respond accordingly. If you wish, you may verify the questions and issues being tracked by the research officer at the end of your appearance. Are there any questions from the members before we begin? I’m now required to call vote 1601, which sets the review process in motion. We will begin with a statement from the minister for up to 20 minutes. Minister, the floor is yours.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Good morning, Chair. Good morning, members of the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs. I’m so pleased to be here with you today to discuss the 2026-27 expenditure estimates for the Ministry of Labour, Immigration, Training and Skills Development. I’d also like to thank Premier Ford for his trust and confidence in me to trust me with this important portfolio just earlier this month, as you know. I’d also like to offer my sincere thanks to Minister Piccini, to Deputy Minister Lebi and his team and all of our team members at the ministry for their support as I take on the very meaningful work at a very critical time for the Ministry of Labour, Immigration, Training and Skills Development. Ontario is facing a period of major economic uncertainty. Ongoing trade disruption and US tariffs are putting pressure on our workers, our businesses and key industries. Meanwhile, employers are looking for more skilled people to build homes and critical infrastructure, to strengthen our manufacturing and energy sectors and to keep Ontario’s economy moving. Our government’s focus is clear: Protect Ontario—protect our workers, the jobs and paycheques that all their families depend on. Our workforce advantage has made Ontario one of the best places to work in, invest in and build. Every day, the ministry helps build people to gain the skills and find jobs, to stay safe at work, to build successful lives at home here in Ontario. Responding to today’s uncertainty is about more than managing the immediate challenge. It means making Ontario more competitive, self-reliant and better prepared for whatever comes next. That starts with investing in opportunities. Each day, our ministry helps workers train for new opportunities; find good-paying, in-demand jobs on safe work sites; and build successful careers in Ontario. We’re helping young people and job seekers enter the skilled trades and supporting experienced workers in upgrading their skills, adapting to changing workforce needs and advancing their careers. This is about developing the talent we need to build Ontario’s future and helping employers develop and attract the skilled talent they need to grow, invest and create jobs. Ontario’s ability to build, compete and grow depends on having a strong workforce to get the job done. When workers have the skills employers need, businesses can respond to changing conditions, major projects can move forward without delay and more people can find good-paying, rewarding jobs. That’s how we build a stronger, more resilient economy, and that’s how we build our future. Today, I’ll highlight some of the ways our ministry is putting that plan into action. Chair, Ontario’s workers are one of our greatest competitive advantages—we’ve all said that, regardless of political stripe. We’ve all said that our workers are our competitive advantage. As jurisdictions around the world compete for skilled talent, we need to make sure Ontario has the people required to build, grow and compete. That means helping people develop new skills, connecting workers with good jobs and making it easier for employers to find the talent they need. Employment Ontario is at the centre of that work and represents the largest area of investment within my ministry. In 2025-26, Employment Ontario supported more than 237,000 clients through integrated employment services, including more than 82,700 youth clients. Through Get SET—skills, education and training—over 45,000 adult learners strengthened foundational skills like communication, numeracy and digital literacy. These programs help people build the skills they need to find work and move forward with their careers, while connecting employers with workers and communities across all of beautiful Ontario. When workers are suddenly displaced, we’re making sure those supports are there when and where they need them most—pardon the acronyms, Chair. Through protect Ontario workers employment response centres, which I’ll refer to as POWER centres, as we all know—POWER centres are bringing employment services power to retraining opportunities and community supports, directly to workers impacted by tariffs or any form of economic disruption. As of August 31 of this year, 11 POWER centres were operating across Ontario and supporting more than 26,000 workers. We’re also working with the federal government on the Canada-Ontario workforce tariff response. Through a $228-million federal investment over three years, this initiative will help train 27,000 workers—to retrain, upgrade their skills and respond to any disruptions caused by tariffs in these global changing conditions, which are changing daily. At a time of economic uncertainty, we all want workers to know that if their job or industry is disrupted, there’s a path forward. Developing Ontario’s workforce is only part of the equation. We also need to make it easier for skilled Canadians to put their training experience to work right here at home. In January of this year, Ontario’s historic as-of-right labour mobility measures act came into effect. For eligible regulated occupations, certified workers from other provinces and territories can begin working in Ontario within 10 business days, after completing a required process, while they pursue their full Ontario certification. The framework applies to professions covered by more than 50 regulatory authorities and approximately 300 certifications. That means workers spending less time waiting on the sidelines and employers having faster access to the skilled workers they need now. At a time when businesses are facing labour pressures and uncertainty beyond our borders, removing barriers at home and within Canada is just common sense. Nowhere is the need for skilled workers more apparent than our skilled trades. Ontario is building homes, highways, hospitals, schools, transit, energy projects and other critical infrastructure at unprecedented scale, and we need enough skilled workers to build them. In 2025-26, almost 16,000 people registered as apprentices, nearly 11,000 completed their apprenticeship training and over 14,000 received financial support while attending in-class training. Those workers are building the skills we rely on for years to come, and we’re supporting them every step of the way. Through the Ontario Youth Apprenticeship Program, OYAP, one of my favourite programs, students in high school can begin exploring and training for careers in the trades while they’re still in high school. Through the Pre-apprenticeship Training Program, we’ve invested $47.6 million in 106 projects across Ontario, helping kids get hands-on experience to prepare them to be registered apprentices. Of those projects, 87 were selected to target historically under-represented groups and expect to serve more than 2,300 participants. Through the Apprenticeship Capital Grant, we’ve invested $10.1 million across 29 projects to help colleges, unions and other training centres and providers purchase modern equipment to expand their training capacity. Through the achievement incentive, we’ve invested $32.8 million to help employers take on and train apprentices by rewarding their progress with milestone payments. That means, as they’re working and learning, they get paid along the way to build that career as young people. In 2024-25, more than 20,000 apprentices reached milestones, resulting in 26,000 payments to their sponsors. We’re also introducing thousands of young people to opportunities like Level Up! skilled trades career fairs, where students can try the tools of the trade hands-on, meet with workers and employers and learn where apprenticeship can lead them. Last year, we welcomed over 56,000 participants to our career fairs, and we expect more than 60,000 this year. Together, these programs are helping more people see a future for themselves in the skilled trades and giving them a practical pathway to get there. I’ve spoken to many of these young people, like I’m sure my colleagues have, at the competitions, at career fairs. To see that twinkle in their eyes when they see this is meaningful long-term work—a horizon where they can build a family and build a future. Building Ontario’s workforce goes beyond apprenticeship, though. We’re investing across our workforce to help people train, retain and move into opportunities where their skills are needed most. A major part of that work is the Skills Development Fund. Since its launch, the Skills Development Fund has invested more than $1.7 billion to expand access to training and build the capacity we need to meet the rising demand for skilled workers across sectors. For the training stream, more than 1,000 projects have aimed to help over 700,000 participants prepare for in-demand careers. All 48 capital stream projects expanded to support nearly 200,000 trainees over five years by expanding and upgrading training facilities themselves. Of course, these investments mean more training spaces, modern equipment and opportunities for workers to build the skills employers need now. For round 6, we took the opportunity to strengthen the training stream with enhanced oversight, monitoring and, most importantly, outcome tracking. As of September of this year, 165 new round 6 training projects have been rolled out across Ontario. We’re also helping people retrain where and when they need to, to make a career change, and that can happen anywhere, at any time. Through Better Jobs Ontario, we invested nearly $87 million in 2025-26 to help unemployed workers access training for in-demand jobs. More than 4,200 people started training through the program last year alone. For someone who has lost a job or is looking to change careers or upskill, that support can help turn disruption into opportunity and stability. Through Skills Advance Ontario, SAO, we’re working directly with employers and training providers to build skills around the needs of specific sectors and workplaces—we know what they are. As of August of this year, 14 SAO projects were supporting nearly 2,000 workers from tariff-impacted industries. Taken together, these programs give us different tools to respond to a variety of workload challenges, and they’re in all our communities—we know what they are. When we say, “Protect Ontario,” we’re protecting all of Ontario, everywhere in Ontario. When someone’s entering the workforce, changing careers, or responding to a layoff or upgrading their skills, we want to help them have a clear pathway to the opportunities being created across Ontario—again, long-term certainty, stability. We want employers in sectors like construction, health care, manufacturing, mining and energy to know they have the skilled people they need to grow their businesses. Helping someone build a career also means ensuring they return home safely at the end of every day. Everyone in this committee and our colleagues know my background: It’s all about getting home safely at the end of the day, and nothing is more important than the safety of our workers. Ontario continues to maintain one of the strongest workplace health and safety systems in Canada, supported by robust enforcement, prevention and education. Last year, the ministry’s occupational health and safety inspectors conducted more than 79,000 field activities at over 34,000 workplaces across the province. It’s important; I’ve heard from both inspectors and employers and workers that they’re welcome when they come in—when, maybe, that blue hard hat or whatever colour code they’re using now—they’re welcomed as a business partner by the employer, by the workers, by the union and by everyone involved. That work resulted in more than 102,000 enforcement actions under Ontario’s workplace health and safety legislation. These inspections identify hazards, they hold workplaces accountable and they make sure employers and workers both understand their responsibilities. Enforcement is only one part of keeping people safe.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

We also need, most importantly, to prevent injuries and occupational illnesses before they happen. This means giving workers and employers better tools to identify hazards, understand risks and act earlier. Over the past year, we launched the first phase of Ontario’s Occupational Exposure Registry, including a self-tracker that allows workers to record exposures to hazardous substances through every stage of their career. We expanded the silica control tool to help more workplaces identify and reduce exposure to respirable crystalline silica which can cause, as we know, serious illnesses. We continue working with provinces and territories to harmonize health and safety training across the country—and early in my apprenticeship here as our Minister of Labour, I’ve talked to some of our leaders in our provinces, and they’ve embraced this with open arms. In July, we updated the joint health and safety committee certification standards that came into effect, making training more accessible, streamlining certification and strengthening leadership in workplace health and safety, violence and harassment—all critical components to a safe workplace. These initiatives are backed by more than $100 million annually through the occupational health and safety prevention system, including funding for health and safety associations and research organizations that provide the training, expertise and support workplaces need across the province. As we develop Ontario’s next five-year occupational health and safety strategy, we completed 57 engagement sessions with over 700 individuals, along with written submissions from OHS system partners, other ministries and organizations outside of the traditional prevention system. We truly need to hear voices from everywhere. This critical input will shape the next phase of our work to prevent workplace injuries, illnesses and fatalities and help us respond to emerging new risks impacting our workers. Protecting workers also means making sure people are treated fairly, they’re paid what they are owed and they know their rates on the job. Through our employment standards system and our Employment Standards Program, we help workers understand and exercise their rights while supporting businesses in meeting their obligations. Last year, ministry officers closed more than 14,000 employment standards claims. That work helps workers recover what they’re entitled to in a timely manner and ensures that businesses who follow the rules are not ever put at a disadvantage by those who do not. Over the last several years, Ontario strengthened workplace protections by expanding job-protected leaves, strengthened protections against exploitation and job-posting fraud and improved supports for workers impacted by layoffs. These changes provide greater certainty for workers navigating illness, job loss or a career transition, while supporting fair workplaces and responsible employers. This is something we can all celebrate. Protecting our collective future, though, also means making sure Ontario can attract and retain the skilled people we need. The Ontario Immigrant Nominee Program is an important part of that work. Through the OINP, Ontario nominates skilled workers for permanent residence based on the needs of our economy and the needs of our labour market. After the federal government reduced Ontario’s allocation to just under 11,000 nominations in 2025, the province received 14,119 nominations in 2026. That gives Ontario greater capacity to attract and retain workers with the skills that employers need to support our key industries and communities. We talk to our communities; we know our ridings. We talk to employers, we talk to workers and we know the in-demand skills need to be built here but also need to be attracted from parts around the world.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

And this is something we can all celebrate, how to move forward, because I can truly talk to you and our colleagues about this all day. Supporting labour stability is on our minds, and protecting Ontario’s economic future is all our collective goal. I want to thank all our ministry’s employees, our agencies, our service providers and partners for their dedication and hard work on behalf of workers, employers and communities across beautiful Ontario. Of course, I would like to thank my colleague Minister Piccini for leading that impactful work over the past three years. I look forward to continuing his work and our collective work as we make sure Ontario remains the best place in North America and the world to work, build, invest, grow and raise our families. Thank you, colleagues. I look forward to good discussions and your questions.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much for the presentation. I’m sure the rest of it will come through with some of the questions. We now will begin our question-and-answer segment and the remainder of the allotted time in the rotations: 15 minutes for the official opposition members, 15 minutes for the third party member, five minutes for the independent member and 15 minutes for the government members. As always, your comments must be made through the Chair. For ministry officials and staff, please state your name and title when you are called on to speak so that the proceedings can be accurately recorded in Hansard. We will start with official opposition. MPP West.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, Minister. Congratulations on the new file and congratulations on your son’s wedding—on both of them.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Thank you.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

Also, in the spirit of congratulations, I see that MPP Susan Lahey is here, so congratulations on your election, MPP Lahey. For a minute, I thought that I forgot one of my colleagues and didn’t recognize them because of the long break we had. So, let’s just rip off the Band-Aid: Let’s start with SDF. For context, everyone here knows, but just if someone has not been following, on context, the Auditor General had a report that came out about the SDF funding that happened in the past. They concluded that the process was not fair, transparent and accountable. They said that poorly rated applications for SDF funding had still been approved because the minister’s office got involved and that this happened more than half the time. They found that $742 million went to the minister’s hand-picked applications, which was more than the entire amount of the federal transfer amounts—or just about the same amount; some $126 million was traced to lobbyists connected to the Conservative government; over $100 million went to clients of lobbyists who managed the Premier’s campaign; millions went to companies that were connected to Ford’s family dentist; and $10 million went to train workers at an adult entertainment club. So how much last year, how much this year is estimated to be spent on SDF?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Thank you for the question. The last component, MPP West, I didn’t catch.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

The $10 million to the adult workers? That’s probably not the part you wanted. There are a lot of scandals related to the SDF. I believe what’s going on is that public confidence has been shaken on this fund and that agencies and workplaces that require it, because of the things that were highlighted that were not appreciated by the public by the Auditor General, could create a situation where the public has a backlash for SDF and we’re not actually going to be able to allocate funding to where it needs to go. I’m wondering how much was spent last year for SDF and how much you’re estimating to spend this year.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Thank you for the question, through you, Chair: The Skills Development Fund—this is a living process. It’s meant to be innovative. It’s meant to embrace change. The Skills Development Fund is meant to pivot at a time of need because we have no idea what to anticipate for the economic future. Who would have thought that our closest trading ally—

Official source

MPP Jamie West

Sorry, Chair. I don’t want to be rude, but I only have a little bit of time and you’re not replying to the question. I’m just wondering, how much are we expected to spend in the upcoming year.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Connecting people to real skills and real jobs is our priority. As far as specific numbers, we’re building that process right now. I’ll introduce my deputy minister, Jonathan Lebi, to provide a few technical aspects to the actual how we’re building out that fund to respond to real and present dangerous threats.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

Good morning, everyone. Jonathan Lebi, deputy minister for the ministry. Thank you for the question. I’m happy in subsequent questions to talk about the improvements being made. You asked about the funding for this year. Round 6 was just launched in July and it will take us through this year. We have approved funding of around $264 million for that.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

Okay, and then a quick follow-up question to either of you: How do you track the return on investment on this funding? Was it $206 million you said was going out? Sorry, I forgot to write it down. These are taxpayer dollars at the end of the day, so how do we track that return on investment? How do we assure taxpayers who are skeptical, because of what came out of the Auditor General’s report, that the money is going to the right places? What is the return on investment and how do we keep track of it?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

I can answer that. As I said, this is a living fund. It’s meant to adapt and change and improve and be more rigorous and be better. We’ve taken the AG’s comments seriously and we’re working hard. Round 6 will require applicants to disclose registered lobbyists or consultants they use, and it will also have a time feature, a report back for three, six and 12 months for KPIs to measure that return, to make sure we’re connecting people through those training opportunities to actual in-demand jobs. Key performance indicators tracked, reports back, ongoing conversations like it should be in a—transparent, fair and living process that improves year-round.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

Thank you. I appreciate that. I think that’s a good step forward. I think it leads into what I was going to talk about and why I was bringing this up. I’ve had the labour file for a while. I’ll go back to 2024 during estimates. I talked about Scale Hospitality back then and, at the time, it was reported that they had received $5,397,501. This was one of the organizations that the minister’s office got involved with that the Auditor General had already reported on that didn’t seem fair and transparent. And so, I asked during that time if the minister or the ministry could respond in writing. It’s quoted here: “If you could follow up ... in writing to find out how many people were helped through this. Did they hit their target with the 2,500 job seekers? Were they able to build the training institute?” They had promised to build a training institute to train 2,500 job seekers. For context, this was about training people after COVID back into hospitality, which I think was important. I was asking what did Ontario taxpayers get for this investment? I’m quoting again, “I just want to know, in this specific instance, what was the return on investment for Ontario’s taxpayers?” The 2025 estimates, again, I asked the minister. It’s been more than one year. Last year, I had heard that the funding was over $5 million. Now, my new understanding is that Scale Hospitality has received $17 million to date. So I asked again, what was the return on investment? What did Ontario’s taxpayers get for their $17-million investment? How many people were trained through this? Did Scale hit their target with the 2,500 job seekers? Were they able to build the training institute? So my question, Minister: Scale Hospitality received $17 million. What was the return on investment for the Ontario taxpayers that paid into this? Times are tough right now. What did they get for their $17 million? How many people were trained? Did Scale hit their target with 2,500 job seekers? Were they able to build the training institute? Could we all go visit the training institute and touch the walls and stuff? Because $17 million—if someone gave me that, no strings attached, I’d retire and walk away forever. And that would probably save you in the future, for estimates. But the reality is, we need—it’s nice to hear the KPIs, but I’m looking at three years with one organization that got $17 million where no one is able to provide any information to me. Can you provide this to me?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Thank you, MPP West, and through you, Chair: Through the first five rounds, 120,000 participants participated and found employment within 60 days—120,000 employed within 60 days; 700,000 people trained across those five rounds. Expected trainees over five years, through 48 capital streams—there’s 190,000. In round 6—as I said, just announced; I rolled it out on August 31—164 new training streams that just rolled out. That’s nearly 100,000 workers in round 6 projects aimed to help gain skills for in-demand careers. That’s the project parameters. To dive into specifics, over the course of the history of several rounds, I can let our deputy minister assign a few numbers to the actual specifics for the one component you’re talking about.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

I’d actually like to call a friend and call up the ADM responsible, if that’s okay, with respect to the SDF.

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

Good morning. My name is Didem Proulx, and I’m the ADM of the employment and training division at the Ministry of Labour, Immigration, Training and Skills Development. Thank you for the question. Given the number of projects that have been funded through the SDF over the years, over six rounds, there have been thousands of applications and over 1,000 projects funded. I don’t have the KPIs associated with each of those initiatives here with me, but we are happy to take that question back.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

In the past, though, two years in a row, I have asked for this data. I was under the assumption, when people would reply, similar to how you replied—nothing personal against you, Didem—that I would be provided that information. It hasn’t been provided. And this is the third year in a row asking about this $17 million to a company, asking did they build a building? Did they employ the people they said they were going to employ? Those are, I feel, basic KPIs to give someone $17 million. When I asked this in a room full of ministry staff and the minister, no one seems to even be aware. I don’t know if they’re aware of who Scale Hospitality is, but it doesn’t fill me with encouragement that this program is going to be well-funded in the future. My concern—really, there’s two, and one is the funding should be used appropriately. I think that’s the concern that most taxpayers have. The second one is, the areas that require this funding—and perhaps Scale is one of them, but we’re trying to get people into the skilled trades, and we’re trying to build training centres. There will be a backlash against SDF where you just won’t be able to do it. It’ll be unpalatable to the public. So for the $17 million over three years, can I get in writing a commitment that this information will be provided to us so we can assure the public that their money wasn’t wasted, that a training centre was built, that the people were hired, that those basic KPIs were met? Is that something that can happen?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Through you, Chair: MPP West, we will take that back. We will take that seriously. That’s a fair question. We’ll take that back and work hard on that, and furnish whatever we can to break those down into granular sections to make sure there’s a good return on investment.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

Can I ask the Clerk to formally send a letter or do something so that it moves forward? Is that something I’m allowed to do? Because it’s the third year of asking for this.

Official source

Mr. James Beange

We’re tracking those as an outstanding question, and there will be a memo that is drafted after this that I’ll share with the Clerk, that will then go to the ministry.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

How much time, Chair?

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Three minutes.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

Good. With the stats that you have and the employment you have—and the numbers are impressive; I’m happy to hear that. Do you track employment after six months on these—do people get a job, do they continue to have their job? This is on the theme of return on investment.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Chair, through you: Yes, we certainly do. Again, in round 6, it builds that right into the formula. That’s that new rubric, that new template. It builds in three-, six- and 12-month checks: What are the outcomes? Where are the applicants now? How did their training go? Did that provide fruitful, meaningful employment? That’s what we’re going to be doing, and that’s going to be publicly disclosed.

Official source

MPP Jamie West

Taking a slightly different tack, just based on the time that we have, I want to talk about occupational disease. This ties into—tomorrow, we’ll have mining and energy estimates as well; they’re overlapping. There’s a real concern underground with occupational disease when it comes to—you mentioned silica. You mentioned protecting workers and how important that was. There’s a real concern when it comes to diesel particulate matter, silica and other carcinogens. I know a lot of what you talked about was the ability to record this already, but in the mining industry there’s more than 30 years of data on this. In the budget and going forward, is there a pool of money, an estimate put forward, to look at this and to make a decision based on how to ensure that these workers aren’t dying from occupational diseases at the end of their careers? Just for context, the reason I’m asking this is because I live in a mining town—lots of mining, generational mining. My grandfather, my dad and my great-grandfather were miners. I worked at a smelter. You’re getting to a point where people who love mining, who work in mining, are concerned about occupational disease and telling their kids, “Don’t go into this field.” I love it. My son worked in it for a while and chose a different path after a while; I’m happy he did. I want to ensure that people who work in these good-paying jobs also are able to enjoy a quality retirement. Is there money set aside to really look at this and move forward on improving workplace conditions in underground mines?

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Through you, Chair: The Occupational Exposure Registry is a priority. Like we just said, enforcement is one component, but prevention is the other, like you said. The self-tracker was launched in February of this year. It’s voluntary, but most importantly, it’s confidential. To get to your question, though, to talk about the funding behind that rigorous system, I can pass to the DM.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

Firstly, WSIB funds claims, as you know, but we also have a $100-million budget that funds and supports health and safety across the board, including working with Workplace Safety North and others on research to address enforcement and support and ongoing operations. We have a prevention strategy we’re finalizing that’s prioritizing mining and other diseases, as well, to focus. So we do have a budget allocation working directly with partners, as well, in the health space.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

MPP Fraser.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

Thank you very much, Minister, for being here. Congratulations. And congratulations to Susan Lahey on her election. I’d like to thank the deputy and everybody who’s here with the ministry. I’d like to thank you for all your work in the ministry. Things have been difficult. I’m not going to start off with skills development; my colleague has done that. It’s like you’ve been given a gift to embrace, but when it comes to the Skills Development Fund, it’s more like a cactus and you don’t want to hug it too tight. I do think we have to talk a little bit about history. I’ll do that later on. My colleague has mentioned those things. We’ll get back to it. The thing I really want to understand is, given the circumstances that we’re in right now with stubbornly high unemployment and stubbornly high long-term unemployment and really bad youth rates, in the last—when we look at the ministry’s operating expenses here, you’re $119 million below the estimates of last year, but when you look at public accounts from last year, you spent roughly $450 million less than budgeted. So when we take a look at just the estimates, Employment Ontario drops by $117.9 million, or about 6.3%. Given that, in 2026, our labour force dropped by about 71,000 people—including 31,000 in manufacturing—and that youth unemployment is 6.2%, how is it that the ministry left $450 million on the table? With these estimates saying you’re going to spend about $117.9 million less in the Employment Ontario budget, how can we be assured, how can we have any kind of confidence that you’re going to be able to—you said you served 82,000 young people last year. How many didn’t we serve? How many do we plan to serve next year? Because the investment’s going backwards; it’s not going forwards.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Thank you. Through you, Chair, I just had this image of a cactus.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

It’s a cactus.

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

I’m comfortable being uncomfortable. I spent my whole career in public safety, looking to prevent, looking to safeguard. I wish it wasn’t true, but it is true: A government can’t control employment outcomes directly, but we can employ the supports there when and where they need them, at the time and place they need them. We can’t control how a private sector business decides on what to do and how the workforce changes, but we can quickly respond to workers when and where they need us by having rigorous, robust programs that are really designed to upskill, retrain, re-skill, where and when they need them. A worker who receives a layoff notice shouldn’t have to navigate a bureaucratic red tape system to get supports they need to support themselves or their families. So our response is always going to be immediate transition supports where and when they need them, retraining pathways into sectors that are hiring. Now to delve into some numbers—and I know you had some numbers involved there—I will defer to my deputy minister to dive into those numbers for you.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

Firstly, it’s a pleasure to see you, MPP. We spent some quality time in the fall talking about the SDF, which I’m sure we’ll get back to. MPP, from the ministry’s perspective, we didn’t under-spend; we made adjustments for the timing. One of the most prominent adjustments was with respect to delaying the next round of the SDF, which itself represented $265 million, to allow us the time to really read, review, absorb and make changes in response to the Auditor General’s report, which were, as we talked about in the fall, remarkably important to us, and we’ve made significant adjustments. So that’s a key component of the reason why it looks different, and I’m happy to go through the numbers for the rest. I think, though, your earlier point with respect to youth and how we are supporting youth is really the fundamental piece to focus on as well. I’d be happy to go through the numbers where we’re prioritizing, because I think that is—you talked about unemployment and long-term unemployment in the youth—a critical issue that we’ve identified as well as something that needs to be dealt with now and actually from a transformed perspective. We have supported youth through a number of streams, not just the SDF. Through our employment services, we supported 82,700 youth last year. And that’s through integrated employment services, which itself has a remarkably high success rate. To MPP West’s point around tracking, almost 75% of those get employment through that process. We do support youth through the Level Up! fairs and SDF. I don’t want to use your time up. I’m just saying I’m happy to answer it.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

I asked the question, so.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

So we spent, through our Achievement Incentive Program for apprenticeships, $32.8 million largely looking at youth through Get SET—skills and literacy. We prioritized 17,200 youth last year to try to upgrade them through skills upgrades through Better Jobs Ontario and the like—and OYAP as well, as the minister talked about as well, fundamentally, to get youth into the apprenticeship space: over 28,000 youth last year. It’s our perspective that we have to be able to do multiple things at the same time. One is look at the employment changes, but one is really to start to address and support youth across a variety of ways, including introducing them to skills earlier, to apprenticeships earlier and to try to get them paired.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

We know how many youth you served in the last year. You’re projecting to spend less money.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

We respond to demand out there. So we have programs—

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

The demand is 16.2%.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

For sure, the demand for youth. I’d say youth is—I’d actually really be happy to get into it because the problems for youth are multifold. Some of them are around, how do we try and connect youth that need experiences and supports into jobs? Some of it is around what are called NEET youth—those that are not in employment, education and training, that are disconnected. So we see 16.2% there as a youth number, but it doesn’t fully represent youth that are interested in jobs. Some of it is youth that we’re trying to get back into training because they aren’t interested. So we’re trying to actually take a nuanced approach to how we support youth. Our programs, Employment Ontario and integrated employment services, are largely demand-driven. If the youth approach, if we can recruit them and entice them, we have the dollars there. But we need to try to get them through the door, and that’s not always possible.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

Does somebody want to talk a little bit more about how—I’m trying to square this, right? And I appreciate what you’re saying, but we’re looking to invest less. There’s a reduction. You are reducing in this budget, and you spent—is that correct? That’s my reading.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

Our perspective is, it’s not a reduction; it’s a delay in timing and expiration on some one-time programs. That leads to appearing on the bottom line like less money in a year, but it also is a shift to now, a year like we are now, to spend, hopefully, more. We also have some tariff supports online as well that will hopefully lead to more direct spending. But I will have my colleague Didem—you’ve met before—just add to that.

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

In comparing the numbers year over year, what looks like a drop is actually one-time funding that was in place in 2025-26. That time-limited funding and program is coming to an end, and then that’s why the number appears lower. There are no reductions or cuts to any of the employment and training programs. And as the deputy mentioned, because our programs are demand-driven, if there is additional need, we do serve those clients, and if we have to go back and request funding—

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

Not to put too fine a point on it: It is one-time funding, but you spent the money. So the question is, if you have 16.2% unemployment in youth, even if it’s one-time money, why would you spend less money? But more importantly, how many youth do you—because I want to get on some other stuff because we can go down a wormhole here and we could be here for the rest of the day talking about this—but how many youth do you plan to serve in the coming year based on these estimates?

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

We don’t allocate specific targets to various groups. We serve all clients that arrive at Employment Ontario. So if more youth come—and we are actually working across the government with sister ministries like education and MCURES and others to support all youth in a coordinated way to make sure that, as the deputy mentioned, we can meet the differentiated needs of students at school, be it secondary school or university—they need summer jobs or part-time jobs—or be it leaving post-secondary and looking for their first real job, or NEET youth, getting them back into the market.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

I appreciate that answer and the work that you do, but I still have a lot of concern that—and even with some of what I heard, just in terms of there’s not a specific target. There’s not, you know—

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

I appreciate the question. Maybe I would put it a little bit differently. I’m not sure this will satisfy you, but this is our perspective as well. I had mentioned a few things: in integrated services, 82,700 last year; in youth in Get SET, 17,200 last year; through OYAP, 28,000 last year; through Level Up! participants, 60,000 last year. For us, that’s now the baseline. We want to do better and do more, given what you’ve said before. So it’s demand-driven, but if you want a bit of a target, MPP, last year is now our baseline and we’re striving for more than that. That’s how I would respond.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

Thanks very much, I appreciate it. How much time do I have, Chair?

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

You have 3.5 minutes.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

Community response and foundational skills is funded at $276.2 million, roughly $60 million below last year’s estimate. How much of that is dedicated in 2026-27 to rapid re-employment and training for those sectors most affected—for auto, steel, manufacturing workers laid off because of tariffs?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Thanks for that. I’m going to defer to the deputy on this one.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

While my colleague looks up the answer to that one, I would say a few things. One, again, the RRTS is demand-driven, so we have as much funding as we need to address to that, but I will get you the notional allocation. But I would say, in addition, with respect to—I think you’re aiming at, “What is the government doing to support tariff response?” and things like that. Just to clarify, is that where you’re trying to go? Or is that where you’re interested in going?

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

Well, actually, it’s—

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

I just don’t want to get it wrong.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

I’ll wait to get the answer, actually. What I do want to ask about this fund is: This fund is used to allocate to workers money to retrain, to pay their educational institutions to cover their costs. Is that correct? Have I got the right fund?

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

We have a number of different funds, and Didem will come up here. Rapid Re-employment Training Service is really trying to connect employers, unions and communities when layoffs occur, in particular. We have a few different streams, as the minister was talking about, of funding. Better Jobs Ontario supports unemployed and underemployed workers to train for in-demand occupations. And really, when it comes to tariffs and those that are at risk because of tariffs, it’s our new $228.8 million over three years with the Canada-Ontario workforce tariff response which helps those impacted workers for those impacted sectors you’re talking about. But, Didem, do you want to fix anything I said, or anything to add?

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

No, those are absolutely right. I was—

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

So for Better Jobs Ontario—just correct me if I’m wrong—funds are given to workers to be able to pay for retraining? Is that correct?

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

It is for unemployed people who want to go back to school to do retraining.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

So they receive those funds directly, or do they go to the training institution directly? Or is there an option to do both?

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

The individuals who are interested in the Better Jobs Ontario program do submit an application. They do say, “Here is the program I would like to do.” They receive up to $28,000, if it’s a one-year program; up to $35,000, if it’s a longer duration. So that application is assessed, and if the person meets the qualifications as well as the program, they receive the funding—

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

They receive it. The only person that receives the funding is that worker, right? Is that correct?

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

It’s the applicant.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

Do we know how much of those funds are being used for our community colleges and how much of those are being used for private career colleges? Are there any restrictions? Does it matter who’s training them?

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

The applicant chooses which program they would like to take, and whether that is in the private career college setting or the community college setting.

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

Do you have any criteria by which you decide whether or not that training is valid?

Official source

Ms. Didem Proulx

It is intended to support retraining in high-demand occupations. And—

Official source

Mr. John Fraser

What I am asking is, the people who are doing the training—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That concludes the time. We will now go to MPP Brady.

Official source

Ms. Bobbi Ann Brady

Good morning, everyone. It’s nice to see everyone after our long break. Welcome and congrats, Susan. Minister, I’m going to follow up on my colleague’s line of questioning because I’m still struggling to connect the demand we are seeing for Employment Ontario services with the broader labour market. I’m going to repeat these numbers: In 2023, Ontario’s unemployment rate was 5.6%. Today, it’s approximately 7.9%—an increase of 2.3 percentage points, or roughly 41%. Yet, in table 2 of the combined operating and capital summary, we know that the Employment Ontario program is showing a 6.3% decrease, while inflation has increased by 2.5%. I want to understand the rationale. At a time when unemployment has increased so significantly, and the cost of delivering services has also risen with inflation, why are we seeing this dramatic funding decrease in Employment Ontario? Are we seeing it because nobody is walking through the doors anymore?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Through you, Chair: Thank you for the question. It’s good to see you as well. Again, I wish we, as a government, could come together and change outcomes, and decide on what private businesses could be doing to make sure we safeguard good employment for everyone—including youth. We can’t do that. The nature and the scope of business has changed. You and I could walk through a Walmart and instead of seeing 50 lanes with maybe 10 having staff, we see one big corral with one person kind of monitoring it. That’s the changing scope and nature and one example of how jobs and the job market are changing. You take that to youth, or to anyone at every stage in their career, and we’re responding to, truly, a changing workplace; the global shock of tariffs; changing systems, business relationships, trade relationships; and increased cost of inputs all along the way in supply chains. Tariff-impacted sectors will receive additional funding support through the Canada-Ontario workforce tariff response and, of course, SDF round 6. We can dive into some of those numbers more specifically.

Official source

Ms. Bobbi Ann Brady

So there really is, maybe, a savings of $131 million. Where is that money being applied where we can see the most productive results? Can you give me concrete examples?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Through you, Chair, again, some of those funding streams had a sunset clause. They were a one-time response. It began with COVID. Post-COVID: the introduction, the understanding, the new reality of dealing with tariffs and our first response to those tariffs. Those programs are over, but the investments remain—like we said, over $250 million in the last round.

Official source

Ms. Bobbi Ann Brady

So which programs are those monies being applied to?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Okay, let’s get into specifics. Through you, Chair, I’ll defer to the deputy and team.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

Again, just while the team comes up, I’ll remind you that Employment Ontario is demand-driven, so the funds are there for when they’re needed. You were asking earlier, just to start it off, about outcomes and making sure clients are served, and served in communities and served as they’re needed. We have a very advanced catchment area where we work with partners to serve them. I just would say that as clients come in, our job is to make sure that they’re retrained and gain employment and that we monitor them at three, six and 12 months. It’s not a cut as much as the demand isn’t there. When the demand surges—and we’re hoping it does as we reconnect people who are unemployed into our integrated employment services and our Employment Ontario programs—we hope to see those numbers go up. Last year alone, Employment Ontario supported more than 602,000 clients, and through integrated employment services since 2021, 553,000 of those clients found employment.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

So we are working to—

Official source

Ms. Bobbi Ann Brady

Okay, but what I’m hearing is that we are adapting according to what we’re seeing is working on the ground. Where is that $130 million being spread out? I do have concerns with respect to Employment Ontario because we know that this government has transitioned into third-party privatized management models. We’re hearing consistent reports of severe front-line instability, which I wonder is part of the reason why we’re not having people walk through the door at Employment Ontario anymore.

Official source

Mr. Jonathan Lebi

Can I ask you where you’re seeing that $130-million number, just so I can give you the best response?

Official source

Ms. Bobbi Ann Brady

It is in the combined operating and capital summary report, table 2. Anyway, I don’t think that’s important at this point. I think the question is, are we seeing less people walk through the doors because of the third-party management of the program?

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

We’ll have to continue that in the next round. We now go to MPP Racinsky.

Official source

Mr. Joseph Racinsky

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before the committee this morning and for sharing what your ministry has been doing. Congratulations on the new role. It’s very well deserved. I know you will do an excellent job, as you have been this morning. Minister, Ontario workers and businesses are facing increased pressure due to US tariffs and the global uncertainty that that’s causing. We are in a trade war. We didn’t ask for this trade war and we didn’t cause this trade war, but we’re in a trade war. As with every war, there is collateral damage, unfortunately. Tragically, it’s the workers on both sides of the border that are caught in the crosshairs. Our government has been clear, and our priority has been protecting workers. We won a third majority government on that promise. We won two by-elections—welcome, MPP Lahey; it’s great to have you here—on that promise. Minister, can you please explain what steps Ontario has already taken to support workers and employers impacted by tariffs?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Thank you for the question. Through you, Chair, you look around the Ontario Legislature at 124 hard-earned seats—people from all walks of life, all professions. I benefit so much from hearing about my colleagues that have worked in mining or construction or education or law. So we all have one thing on our mind collectively: protecting Ontario. Protecting Ontario workers means being ready to respond. These are the same salient questions we talk to one another about when the cameras are off: being ready to respond when global economic pressures, real pressures, are putting jobs and our home communities at risk. I see this first-hand. I hail from Chatham-Kent–Leamington, our southernmost riding. I have a little island in the middle of Lake Erie called Pelee Island; a beautiful town of Leamington, where I was born and raised; and I raised my family in Chatham-Kent. This is a community impacted by trade. We are trade communities. We’re agriculture-based, automotive-based and manufacturing-based. So trade across the border with major employers on both sides of the border and just-in-time delivery for manufacturing, automotive, agri-food, like we said—once that’s disrupted, it disrupts our families, our businesses locally. That’s why our ministry really has the tools in place to respond quickly where and when workers are affected, through a rapid re-employment and training service, working directly with employers, with unions, with local partners, where and when layoffs occur. We organize information sessions and connect all affected workers with employment services, training and opportunities right in their home communities. Last year alone, the ministry reached out to over 160 employers and offered service to 18,000 workers. We invested $20 million in POWER centres, and these centres provided coordinated, community-based supports. So in Chatham-Kent–Leamington, if it’s agriculture, agri-food, automotive manufacturing, it’s there. If it’s anywhere else in the province—if it’s in Sudbury or Timmins—we know what the conditions are on the ground, and the members who report here for duty for their communities respond in kind and make sure that’s highlighted. We’re also working with the federal government, of course, for the Canada-Ontario workforce tariff response, which includes almost $230 million over three years to train 27,000 workers, again to retrain when necessary and upgrade their skills to remain competitive, in sectors such as steel, softwood lumber, automotive manufacturing and any other in-demand sector throughout our communities.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Further questions? MPP Firin.

Official source

MPP Mohamed Firin

Through you, Chair: I would like to congratulate the minister, and I would also like to thank the deputy and his team for joining us today. Minister, every worker in Ontario deserves to be able to work knowing that their health and safety are protected and that they can return home safely at the end of their shift. That requires more than legislation; it requires employers and workers to understand their responsibilities, strong prevention efforts and meaningful enforcement when workplaces fail to follow the law. Can the minister explain how the ministry works to prevent workplace injuries and ensure employers comply with Ontario’s occupational health and safety laws?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Through you, Chair: As I move through the process of apprenticing in this important role, I’m very thankful and grateful to have my colleague MPP Firin to help guide me with his experience, and also his priorities about safe communities and a secure Ontario, because workplace safety is one of our collective and one of our ministry’s most fundamental responsibilities. Ontario’s Occupational Health and Safety Act establishes responsibilities for everyone in the workplace, including owners, employers, supervisors, trade unions and every worker there. At the heart of the system is the internal responsibility system. That means everyone has a role in workplace safety. Workers have a right to know the hazards in the workplace; the right to participate in decisions affecting their health, their day-to-day work relationship; and the right to refuse unsafe work. Employers and supervisors, meanwhile, have very clear legal responsibilities to protect workers and comply with Ontario’s health and safety requirements. Our ministry supports that through, most importantly, education, prevention and, if necessary, enforcement. Inspectors have a wide range of tools available, and I’ll argue that prevention education is at the forefront of their minds and what they enjoy most in their workday: to educate, to prevent and, if necessary, to enforce. In 2025-26, occupational health and safety inspectors conducted nearly 80,000 field activities. That might just include an education or information session. It could include enforcement action at more than 34,000 workplaces across every one of our ridings in Ontario. The ministry also conducts proactive campaigns in sectors where particular hazards have been identified, like mining and like heavy industry. Those have included residential construction, of course; material handling; workplace violence in health care; and even things like slips, trips and falls, which can be catastrophic if not prevented. The outcomes are clear. I want to thank all my colleagues because, really, every employee wants to return home safe to their families and deserves to do so, and every employer wants their employees safe, productive and content.

Official source

MPP Mohamed Firin

Thank you, Minister. Chair, I’d also like to congratulate my colleague, Susan. I yield the floor to MPP Vickers.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

MPP Vickers.

Official source

MPP Paul Vickers

I also want to congratulate you, Minister Jones. We’re going to miss you at OMAFA, but it was great working with you for the last year and a half. I know you’re going to do a great job here in the Skills Development Fund and the ministry that you’re in right now. My question is, Minister, when we speak to young people about their futures, we know there are tremendous opportunities available in the skilled trades. But for many students, their first challenge is simply understanding what those careers look like, what an apprenticeship involves and how they can take that first step. At the same time, Ontario needs a strong pipeline of skilled workers in the years ahead, as experienced tradespeople retire and the province continues building houses, hospitals, highways, transit, energy projects and other critical infrastructure. Can the minister explain how Ontario is introducing young people to careers in the skilled trades and helping them move from the classroom into apprenticeships, training and employment?

Official source

Hon. Trevor Jones

Thank you, MPP Vickers, for that important question. MPP Vickers was also a master journeyperson when it came to dairy farming and milk production. He helped guide me in that way in my apprenticeship as Minister of Agriculture. I thank him for his continued service. This is something we talked about; it’s another salient feature. We talked about awareness. How do we grow Ontario? How do we grow the best food, the best jobs, the best people? It starts early. It starts with awareness and exposure. Having a spouse as a teacher, I heard early on about Specialist High Skills Major programs, the Ontario Youth Apprenticeship Program, getting especially young people in grade 5, grade 6 to grade 8 to be exposed to, “I could have a meaningful career in the trades. I could be an apprentice. I could be a master journeyperson. I could have a career to support my family for the rest of my life.” It starts then. Then, as the high school years roll in, now young people are selecting, in a very deliberate way, what stream they want to pursue. They’ve had that exposure. They’re choosing the stream to say, “Here’s my pathway to reach my full potential.” Again, if young people don’t know these careers exist or can’t picture themselves doing it, it’s much harder for them to be informed about decisions on what trade to pursue, what vocation or career to pursue. Programs like Level Up! are so important. Level Up! has skilled trades fairs; especially kids through grades 7 and 12, it gives them the opportunity to be hands-on in activities, to meet employers, to talk about jobs. The number one question is, “How much will I make if I’m a welder, if I’m an electrician or a plumber or a millwright? What does a millwright even do?” Again, you see that sparkle, that twinkle in the eye of a master journeyperson saying, “A millwright does this.” And so, we talked to operating engineers. We’ve talked to millwrights. We’ve talked to general labourers. The skilled trades of Ontario, they want to replicate that and see their future in our youth. We’re going to work very closely with our partners, with our trade unions, with our schools—both elementary and secondary schools and post-secondary schools—to embrace that opportunity and make sure that can happen.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

MPP Smith.

Official source

Mr. Dave Smith

One of the things that’s been fairly obvious is that there is no simple solution to any of this. You just touched on a couple of things. You talked about Level Up! and you talked about OYAP. We have programs that are out there with Junior Achievement to get things done. We know right now, historically in Ontario, that the average person has five to seven careers in their lifetime. We know that the average person has about 15 different jobs that they have in their lifetime. We also know that we have a shortage of skilled trade workers. We’re at 350,000 or so positions that are available. I think a lot of people kind of misunderstand what actually is a skilled trade, because it follows the full gamut. It could be somebody who is involved as an electrician. It could be a plumber. It could be a hairdresser. It could be a cook. It could be an arborist. There are 140 different skilled trades right now. We had a few more at one point, but some of them have been retired. The likelihood of a blacksmith being needed as we move forward is much, much smaller than some of the other skilled trades that we have. When we look at the entry points for it, there are a number of different ones. I’ll use a block layer as a perfect example. In order to apprentice as a block layer, as opposed to a bricklayer, you need a grade 8 education and you need to be over the age of 18. That’s removed a barrier for a lot of people on it, and we know that when people get involved in these different types of careers, they’re doing so at different points of their lives. If I go specifically to OYAP—and I know I’m rambling here—what I’m going to come back to is about removing barriers on this, because when we look at OYAP, we’ve introduced so many different opportunities for kids. I think one of the challenges that we all have is we don’t really know what we want to do when we get older. I went to university originally thinking that I would do my bachelor of science and physics, and then I would go into aerospace engineering and I’d be a rocket scientist. Now that I’m in politics, there isn’t anyone who’s going to say, “He’s a rocket scientist because he got involved in politics.” My point is that when you look at it from the perspective of a youth, they really don’t know what they want to do. They want something that gives them flexibility. And when they look at skilled trades, specifically for automotive service technician, the different versions of 310—310A, 310B, 310C and so on, there are so many different opportunities for them.

Official source