1:00 p.m.Official transcript
The committee met at 1300 in committee room 2.
Legislative Assembly of Ontario · Committee
Wednesday, October 7, 2026
Standing Committee on Justice Policy · Room 2
The official transcript of the meeting, from Hansard, by heading. Ministers, officials and witnesses appear as the transcript names them; committees have no live transcript, so the record appears once the Assembly publishes it.
Ministry of the Attorney General
1:00 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Mr. Lorne Coe)
Good afternoon, everyone. The Standing Committee on Justice Policy will now come to order. On this afternoon’s agenda is the review of the 2026-27 estimates of the Ministry of the Attorney General. As a reminder, the ministry will be considered for two hours, with a 20-minute opening statement from the minister followed by questions and answers in rotations of 15 minutes for the official opposition, 15 minutes for the third party and 15 minutes for the government members for the remainder of the allotted time. From the ministry, we are joined by the Attorney General of Ontario, the Honourable Doug Downey; the Honourable Michael Tibollo, the Associate Attorney General; and ministry officials and staff. As a reminder, the ministry is required to monitor the proceedings for any questions or issues that the ministry undertakes to address. I trust that the deputy minister has arranged to have the hearings closely monitored with respect to questions raised so that the ministry can respond accordingly. Are there any questions from the members before we start? Okay. I don’t see any, Mr. Clerk. I’d like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that the purpose of considering the estimates is for the members of the Legislature to determine if the government is spending money appropriately, wisely and effectively in the delivery of the services intended. As Chair, I will allow members to ask a wide range of questions pertaining to the estimates before the committee to ensure that they’re confident the ministry will spend those dollars appropriately. In the past, members have asked questions about the delivery of similar programs in previous fiscal years, about the policy framework that supports a ministry approach to a problem or service delivery, or about the confidence of a ministry to spend the money wisely and efficiently. However, it must be noted that the onus is on the members asking the questions to make the questioning relevant to the estimates under consideration within the scope of the estimates. Otherwise, I’ll rule the question out of order. I’m now required to call vote 301, which sets the review process in motion. We’ll begin with a statement from the minister for up to 20 minutes. Minister, I’ll let you know when you’ve got one minute left in your 20 minutes, so please begin. Thank you so much for being with us, and thank you, Minister Tibollo, as well. Thank you, sir. Please start.
1:01 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have no doubt you will tell me when I have one minute left, and we will all be very aware. It really is a pleasure to be back at estimates. It’s a great chance to talk about some of the great work that we’ve been doing and provide some answers for the public as well. I’m joined today, as you can see, by the Deputy Attorney General on my left—your right—and by the Associate Attorney General Michael Tibollo on my other side. Of course, the parliamentary assistant, as part of the committee, is here as well. In addition to us, we have several of our internal leaders, our assistant Deputy Attorneys General from various divisions, and they’re sitting behind me and available to help give some responses as needed. Again, I’m thrilled to be back here—a chance to reconnect. I’ll just start by reiterating that Ontario’s justice system is fundamental to safe communities, it’s fundamental to public confidence and it’s fundamental to a strong economy. People need to know that the law will be upheld, victims will be supported and disputes can be resolved fairly and without unnecessary delay. When we think about the justice system, sometimes people think about only the criminal law side of the justice system, but it is much more than that. It’s the backbone of our economy in creating certainty and predictability for people to resolve their disputes in a fair and accessible way. Businesses and investors need that kind of confidence in our institutions. That’s why our government is continuing to build a justice system that is modern, that is accessible, responsive and resilient—one that protects communities, supports victims of crime and earns public confidence every single day. We’ll get a chance to explore some of those concepts in action. Since the ministry’s last appearance at estimates, our government has continued to make significant progress across the system. I’m pleased to provide the committee with an update on some of that work. But before I do, I want to recognize the justice sector partners whose collaboration helps make this progress possible. The Court of Appeal for Ontario, the Superior Court of Justice and the Ontario Court of Justice, along with partners across the justice system, continue to work with us to modernize services, strengthen capacity and improve access to justice for people across the province. Chief Justice Tulloch, Chief Justice Boucher—newly sworn in as the Chief Justice of the Superior Court—and Chief Justice Nicklas are unparalleled leaders in Canada in terms of collaboration and working together to make our system work better and to make it work well for all sectors of our society. The ongoing collaboration is central to our work to build this stronger system and underscores our commitment to keep communities safe and protect Ontario. Ontario is continuing to modernize how people and businesses access justice, with a focus on services that are easier to use, more responsive, better connected. It’s about making the justice system easier to navigate and giving court users, justice sector partners and front-line staff both the tools and the processes they need to deliver justice effectively. Our government will continue taking strong action to break down long-standing barriers, bring more services online and deliver meaningful change for communities across our province. The last time I appeared before the committee, we had just launched phase 1 of the Ontario courts public portal, making it easier for users to submit documents and manage court-related payments online. It was actually over Thanksgiving weekend last year that 100 people from all sectors of the justice world got together—physically together—to get ready for the launch on the Tuesday after Thanksgiving. That launch went very well, and most of you probably have not heard about it. That alone is success in an electronic launch. So I’m very proud of this. I will talk more about it when we get into it today, but it has been a really unparalleled success. For the first time, court users in Toronto have a single, modern, online access point to complete some of the most common court-related tasks, including filing documents, paying fees, accessing hearings and, of course, more. The portal currently supports civil, family, small claims, bankruptcy, Divisional Court and enforcement matters, as well as family proceedings in the Ontario Court of Justice—effectively everything except criminal, but that’s coming. It’s coming soon in the new year. Since launching last October, the public portal has attracted more than 60,000 registered users and received more than 340,000 submissions. It’s been very active. It’s been really road-tested—and constant improvements before we start to scale it out across the province. But the numbers tell us something important. People are using the service, but it’s really only one perspective. We’re continuing to expand the platform with the goal of supporting proceedings across the province over the coming years. As I mentioned, next year, we’re planning to expand the portal to include Toronto criminal proceedings, followed by further regional expansion between 2028 and 2030. Again, in the technology world, it’s a very fast deployment, but it’s very solid. We’re being watched from around the world. We’ll talk about that too. In addition to that, this past April, in collaboration with the Court of Appeal for Ontario, we also launched the Ontario Court of Appeal public portal, which allows members of the public and legal professionals to file online, process payments and search for appeal cases. Since both portals launched, over 65,000 users have registered, and over 12,000 filings have been submitted through the Ontario Court of Appeal portal. These are impressive figures and a crucial measurement of success as we advance our plan to reduce wait times and make justice systems more user-friendly than ever before. Beyond online filing, though, we’re improving how people participate in proceedings. In 2021, our government invested $65 million to expand the use of virtual and hybrid hearings across the province. To date, we’ve equipped 275 courtrooms with modern technology to support hybrid hearings. By the end of this project, we are aiming to upgrade a total of 338 courtrooms with modern audiovisual systems. These upgrades are about more than technology. They give courts greater flexibility. They improve access for participants. They help build a justice system that is more accessible, is more responsive and is more resilient. But technology alone can’t modernize the system. We also need the people, we need the resources and we need the physical capacity to deliver justice effectively. That’s why our government is making record investments to strengthen the sustainability of Ontario’s world-class justice system. By 2027, our government will have invested more than half a billion dollars to address court backlogs and build a more sustainable system for the future. Within that half a billion dollars, it includes an allocation for up to 52 net new judges to the Ontario Court of Justice and the hiring of nearly 700 additional crown prosecutors with both victim support and court staff. This past June, we’ve also announced the appointment of 27 new justices of the peace to the Ontario Court of Justice. They joined the 42 we announced in 2025 and the 45 we announced in 2024. These investments are delivering results. Internal crown reporting indicates that, in 2025, cases stayed due to section 11(b)—commonly known as Jordan—account for approximately 0.05% of all cases disposed. That’s one twentieth of 1%. That’s an important indicator of progress, and we will continue the work required to sustain it. Alongside our investments in court capacity, we’re bringing justice services closer to the communities and the people who need them through justice centres, which our government launched in 2020. They connect justice-involved people with supports that can include health care, mental health, addiction services, housing, social services, education, employment supports—all in one community setting. By bringing the services together, justice centres are helping reduce reoffending, connecting people with appropriate supports and pairing accountability with the practical help people need to help them move forward. It’s dealing with why they’re there and not just what they did. We will get into some of the stats potentially during the session. They are remarkable, and they are also being watched from around the world for the success that they’re having. I’ll give you one example. In the Ontario Court of Justice, the Toronto youth justice centre, with support from five community satellite locations, enhances prosecution, enhances case management, bail, sentencing and reintegration for youth charged across all 16 police divisions in the city of Toronto. This helps to hold the youth accountable, it helps keep communities safe and it delivers early intervention to break the cycle of offending. I’ll share some of those numbers later today. Taken together, our modernization and capacity-build-ing efforts are helping to create a justice system that is more accessible, more responsive and better equipped to deliver timely outcomes. There’s more ahead, but the progress we’ve made clearly reflects a commitment to build a stronger system for people who are coming into contact with the system and for people who are being affected by individuals who are coming into contact with the system. Another part of the work that we’re reforming are the rules and processes that determine how civil cases move through our system. This is why the civil rules review is such an important part of our broader modernization work. Former Chief Justice Morawetz and I launched the review in 2024. Through consultations with the bar and the judiciary, we identified areas that needed targeted change and could improve efficiency and access to justice for the people of Ontario. The review hadn’t been done for 40 or 50 years, and it was time. We had to change how we’re doing things. Fast-forward to last December: The working group delivered its final recommendations. I want to thank everyone who shared their experience, their expertise and their practical perspectives throughout the review. Their work has given us a solid foundation for lasting reform. There were over 200 submissions—sophisticated submissions—on how the system could work better, but the one thing everybody agreed on: The status quo is not acceptable. And so we are moving forward. The recommendations are wide-ranging, but they share a common purpose: to simplify processes, reduce unnecessary steps and make it easier for cases to move forward. Clearer rules and more efficient processes can mean the difference between unnecessary delay and meaningful progress. It also sends a message to our economic investors and those who would come to our jurisdiction that they will have a system that will work for them when they need it, if they need it. The more efficient courts are, the better it is for everybody in Ontario. Our government is building on the historic measures we have already taken to strengthen our court capacity to keep the community safe and hold offenders accountable. In May, the Solicitor General introduced the Protecting Ontario’s Streets and Communities Act to take decisive action to streamline court processes, improve enforcement and support victims of crime. Among the proposed changes are amendments to the Provincial Offences Act. It would streamline processes and resolve less serious cases faster. Defendants would be allowed to enter guilty pleas without appearing before a justice, helping appropriate matters move through the POA court system more efficiently and reducing pressure on judicial resources.
1:13 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
The legislation would also allow restraining orders issued in other Canadian provinces and territories to be enforced in Ontario without requiring additional court declarations, helping to close the gap in protecting the vulnerable people that now reside in Ontario. We’re also taking steps to build on the successes of dedicated prosecution teams like the major auto theft prosecution team, the intensive serious violent crime bail teams—and there are others. We have launched the first Canadian cyber security special prosecution team in cryptocurrency. We are on the leading edge of it, and we have the best minds that work to protect the people of Ontario. And as part of that work, we’re moving forward with a dedicated prosecution team focusing on retail theft, prioritizing serious cases and providing early investigative advice to police. It will strengthen prosecution capacity, support local businesses and improve safety in and around stores and shopping centres. At the same time, Ontario is advocating for further federal Criminal Code amendments to treat assaults against security guards as an aggravating factor at sentencing. Together, these proposed measures and actions will strengthen enforcement, increase oversight and help protect communities across the province. We all know bail is a critical part of that work, particularly when serious and violent offences are involved. The intensive serious violent crime bail teams bring together dedicated crown attorneys and professionals with the expertise needed to prepare strong cases in complex bail matters involving serious and violent offences. Since they were launched, the teams have been involved in more than 5,600 cases, strengthening the crown’s ability to put the best available case before the court in serious and violent bail matters. It’s a part of our government’s plan to help the courts resolve cases faster than ever and keep dangerous offenders behind bars. The bail system must be stronger. It must be more responsive and have real consequences for violent and repeat offenders. That is why we are continuing to strengthen digital tools to track repeat offenders and those who fail to comply with bail conditions, including work to create a surety database that will help streamline and strengthen surety checks. The principle is straightforward: Court-ordered conditions must be meaningful, and there must be real consequences when those obligations are not met. That commitment to safety extends to Ontario’s courthouses and everyone who enters them. Since 2018, our government has made a multi-year commitment of more than $250 million in investments to strengthen court security and justice infrastructure, supporting more than 2,100 completed security projects across the province. That work includes security system upgrades, single points of entry, improved video and audio surveillance and upgraded access control systems. We will continue to work collaboratively with the Ministry of the Solicitor General, municipal leaders, the judiciary, police services and Infrastructure Ontario to ensure that all court locations have the necessary security measures in place. As I’ve said before, the safety and security of our province is paramount. Safe, secure courthouses are a fundamental requirement of justice systems wherever you are, and people need to be able to trust that. Our government will continue taking action to underscore that commitment, strengthen the safety and security of our courthouses and protect Ontario communities. For victims of crime and vulnerable communities, a strong justice system must provide meaningful support when they need it most. In the past year, our government has continued to invest in services and advanced legislative changes aimed at protecting victims and vulnerable people. In January, we invested an additional $2.3 million to expand access to the independent legal advice program, which provides free legal advice services to victims of sexual assault. As part of this investment, we are expanding program eligibility requirements and extending access to supports for victims of human trafficking, intimate partner violence and other sexual offences. We have also doubled the amount of legal advice time individuals can receive, up from four hours to eight hours, based on an individual’s unique needs. This is in addition to our recent $6.4-million investment in child victim/witness programs and the independent legal advice programs, announced in the 2024 budget. In August, our government announced that $5 million in cash and proceeds seized from criminals would be reinvested through the Civil Remedies Grant Program to help 26 law enforcement agencies and community and Indigenous organizations fight crime and strengthen public safety across the province. Alongside these investments, and through the Protecting Ontario’s Streets and Communities Act, we proposed amendments to the Victims’ Bill of Rights that would give victims of harassment more recourse to sue their harasser for compensation. The proposed changes would also pro-vide up to $50,000 in debt relief for victims of human trafficking through an expedited trauma- informed process, helping survivors build their lives without the need to go to court. These changes would prohibit the collection of co-erced debt and prevent that debt from being considered when determining whether to provide financial products or services to a survivor. Human trafficking survivors would also have access to a designated survivor support organization that would help negotiate the removal of coerced debt and assist survivors through the trauma-informed dispute resolution process. Our work to protect vulnerable people includes strengthening enforcement of the Blind Persons’ Rights Act—people who rely on guide dogs, who are often denied access to public places, making it hard for them to fully participate in their communities. These changes would give police and other enforcement officers clear authority to issue tickets for offences under the act, including when services are denied to a person accompanied by a guide dog. Supporting victims and vulnerable people is central to our work to strengthen public safety. Our government will continue to work to protect victims, to hold offenders accountable and strengthen confidence in Ontario’s justice system. Now, I’ve shared a wide range of updates today. I’ve just scratched the surface of a few of them. I look forward to getting into them, but none of the progress would be possible without the dedication of the people and the partners that make Ontario’s justice system work every day: those municipal partners; the judiciary; victim services groups; the hard work of the Associate Attorney General on bail reform; the hard work of the PA on POA reform, drawing on her extensive background in the POA courts prior to politics. Everybody has all hands on deck and, of course, the ministry—I actually think that it’s the strongest ministry in government. We can duke that out later with the other ministers, but I am so well served by expertise and really innovative people focused on the things that matter to the people of Ontario. Taken together, these initiatives are about confidence: confidence that the system is accessible, that the courts have the capacity to move matters forward, that victims are supported, that offenders are held accountable and that the rule of law is upheld. That confidence is essential to safe communities—
1:20 p.m.Official transcript
1:20 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
That confidence is essential to safe communities and a strong economy. It helps people trust the institutions that serve them and gives businesses the certainty to invest, grow and create opportunity in Ontario. We will continue to modernize justice services, strengthen capacity and work with our partners to build a system that is accessible, responsive, sustainable and worthy of public confidence. I do look forward to your questions on any range of things, and I appreciate the support from the others that are here to help answer those questions if there’s a second level to it. I will stop there, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Merci. Meegwetch.
1:20 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Mr. Lorne Coe)
Thank you, Minister, for your presentation. Committee members, we’ll now begin the question-and-answer segment in rotations: 15 minutes for the official opposition, 15 minutes for the third party and 15 minutes for the government members for the remainder of the allotted time. Please remember to make your comments through the Chair. As the Chair, if a member seeks to reclaim the floor during their rotation while the minister is responding, I’ll recognize you and allow you to reclaim the floor, but please ask a new question. For the deputy minister this year, welcome, sir; assistant deputy ministers, welcome. Staff, if you’re called to the table in front of me, please state your name and your title the first time that you speak so that we can accurately record in Hansard who we have before the committee today. I’ll now start with the official opposition through MPP Wong-Tam, when you’re ready, please.
1:22 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
Welcome to you, Attorney General, as well as the associate minister and the entire complement of staff that you brought here to the committee, and thank you for your presentation. Minister, I’m curious to know—I know that the percentage of individuals who are detained in the corrections facilities, detention centres, is still sitting at over 80%. They are on remand, legally innocent, waiting trial. That number has not moved in the nearly four years that I’ve been sitting and serving on this committee and in this Legislative Assembly. I’m curious to know why we are not seeing any real progress in speeding up those trials, which as you know is critical to the long-term public safety of our province—as well, it undermines people’s faith in the justice system.
1:23 p.m.Official transcript
1:23 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
Thanks for the question. There are a couple of things happening at the same time. We are seeing record numbers of cases come in, but because we’ve built capacity, we’re actually disposing of record numbers. In 2024, we disposed of 245,160 cases, which was the second-highest count ever on record. And then in 2025, it was a very close number, 245,012 cases, which is the third-highest count ever on record. Our clearance rate in 2023 was 104%, so doing more than we were doing intake. And this year to date—I won’t read every year because I know you have more questions—we’re over 100% by a hair. We are, in fact, getting more through the courts, and there are a variety of reasons for that, but I won’t take up all your time by running through them all.
1:24 p.m.Official transcript
1:24 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
What we’re seeing in the corrections system with respect to overcrowded jails, overcrowded detention centres, has worsened, and your government has now quietly removed the minimum standard for sleep area, which has now cleared the way for more triple bunking. And because the percentage of those who are on remand/awaiting trial has not moved, is there anything else that your ministry can do to ensure that that number goes down so we can see quicker access to trials and access to justice in this province? Because it’s been four long years, it hasn’t changed. What else are you up to?
1:25 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
It’s making the system move faster but fairly. It’s adding that capacity. It’s those extra 52 judges. Some 98% of criminal matters go through the Ontario Court of Justice as opposed to the Superior Court, and that’s where we’re putting the investments of the extra judges, along with the extra staff—700 more FTEs. And that’s already happening, it’s already happened. Those are two parts. The other part is legal aid, which I don’t know if we’ll get into questions on legal aid, but we have increased the threshold, virtually doubling it, for an individual with no family. And that’s really important, to make sure that people have the resources they need when they do come in front of the courts. We are, in fact, doing a number of things. I don’t want to get out of my lane on the Solicitor General’s matters, but I can tell you this: We are spending billions and billions of dollars building capacity in the remand, in the jail system, so things are, in fact, happening. We’re seeing more cases through the system, and they’re much more efficiently being done.
1:26 p.m.Official transcript
1:26 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
Thank you, Minister, for your response. It’s unfortunate, I think, and it’s perplexing to many on why this investment is not actually moving the dial on better results for Ontario taxpayers. I’m going to move on, just because I do have more questions, as you noted. On page 81 of the estimates briefing book, we see that the 2026-27 operating expenses for the Indigenous justice division funding is nearly $1.6 million less than the previous year. Can you explain why that funding was cut, and what services were impacted?
1:27 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I’ll start with: Numbers do get reallocated; there’s not a cut in there. That’s not the way to characterize it. But we are doing more in other parts of the ministry that directly affect the Indigenous population. One example I will give is the Kenora justice centre. I think we’ve talked about justice centres before, but it is a resource and it is working and the numbers are stark. The recidivism rates are dropping in half for the population being served. Some of the resourcing is happening in that space. There are other things that are happening that the Indigenous justice division is very much a part of, in making sure that services are provided from victim supports all the way through to hearing matters.
1:28 p.m.Official transcript
1:28 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
Minister, I’m sure you understand that the Indigenous justice division has a very specific focus on reducing the over-representation of Indigenous people in the justice system, as well as for victims and for offenders. Are you not concerned that this drop in funding will lead to worse outcomes and, more importantly, that will undermine that specific goal?
1:28 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I am not concerned about the excellent work that the Indigenous justice division is doing. Part of my goal with Indigenous justice is to do it in a smarter way. The best example I can give you are fly-in courts, that we are using technology to have remote hearings in those fly-in courts so that an individual doesn’t have to get on a plane and travel to another community, be taken out of their community. I think I’ve said before at committee: What it looks like in practice when that happens is the accused, the victim, maybe a witness and another will get on a little six-seater plane and have to fly together out of their community to another community to have a hearing. We’ve put in place all sorts of technology and processes to not make them have to leave their community. That’s just doing justice smarter. Is it more expensive? No, it’s not, actually. It saves money. I think we’re being smarter about justice rather than putting money in something and pretending that it’s getting something accomplished.
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
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1:30 p.m.Official transcript
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
1:30 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
Sorry, Chair. I’d like to take my time back. I have a question specifically about fly-in courts, so, Minister Tibollo, it might be appropriate for you to respond. I’m just going to follow up on a question that was asked by MPP Sol Mamakwa last year regarding fly-in courts. It’s an issue that I know the MPP has been very passionate about. He’s raised it on several occasions. You will recall that there was a case regarding a 23-year-old by the name of Tyresse Roundsky who was fatally shot in the Wapekeka First Nation in a fly-in courtroom which was operating out of a youth centre because they do not have a permanent location for a court in the north. I think you would agree that it’s so important that people in the north are safe in their communities and that they stay close to home as often as possible, yet community members and legal observers have reported that virtually nothing has changed since last year. You can decide on who is going to answer this, Ministers: Because the people’s time is limited and I do have more questions, can you concisely state why it’s taken your ministry so long to make those real and lasting improvements in the courtrooms around safety for our fly-in communities in the north?
1:31 p.m.Official transcript
1:31 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I’ll start. Wapekeka was a tragic incident. I spoke to Grand Chief Fiddler, of course, and others around this immediately. We have, in fact, been putting in security and other safeguards, in coordination with the First Nations, to have those discussions, to find the right balance. But as I was saying in my opening statement, the amount of security that we have invested in this province since 2018 is really quite a bit. It’s record numbers. It’s because the system was left. It was left. Nobody was investing in the system. Whether it was the Liberals or whether it was the NDP supporting the Liberals, nobody was paying attention. All of a sudden, we’re spending money and putting in magnetometers and wands and other security, and everybody wants to talk about it. So we are doing the work, and we are getting it done. We’re doing it in First Nations, and we’re doing it in courthouses across Ontario.
1:32 p.m.Official transcript
1:32 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
Yes, thank you. I appreciate that answer. Minister, I’m going to stay on the issue around courtroom safety just for a little bit longer because I know it’s an issue of significant concern, especially for our Ontario employees who work in those courtrooms. In February, a prosecutor was attacked in a Peterborough courtroom. Her attacker lunged at her from the prisoner’s box, which did not have plexiglass on the front. The prosecutor had personally raised this safety concern about the lack of Plexiglas for over a decade, and then she was attacked. Minister, can you inform the committee and Ontario taxpayers if the prisoner’s box has now been properly funded and equipped with Plexiglas? And has it now been taking place around the province? Are we seeing this in every courtroom?
1:33 p.m.Official transcript
1:33 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
Thank you for the question. I can’t speak to specific incidents, but I will answer the question in a more general way if I can. The standard for safety protocol has been reviewed in every courthouse, whether it be Plexiglas, whether it be anchors for shackles to keep the individual from coming over the bench if they happen to have shackles on. We’ve looked at everything. We’ve looked at entryways. We’ve looked at pathways. We’ve looked at judicial security. We’ve looked at staffing security. We’re doing a top to bottom across the system. We’re not waiting to take action; we are investing a lot of money and a lot of time into making sure those pieces are in place.
1:34 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Mr. Lorne Coe)
Thank you, Minister. New question. You have four minutes left.
1:34 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
I’m just going to stay on this point for a little bit longer, just because I want to know if there’s anybody in the ministry staff who can answer the question of whether or not the Peterborough courtroom, where you had a prosecutor who was physically attacked after 10 years of complaining that they needed Plexiglas in the prisoner’s box—has it been installed now?
1:34 p.m.Official transcript
1:34 p.m.Official transcript
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1:34 p.m.Official transcript
1:34 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
Since the complaint; since the attack. Was it immediately after? Did it take an attack in order for the ministry to respond to that?
1:34 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I will tell you this: Every time there is an incident of any sort, our court services division is very responsive, and we always react immediately—always.
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
I am hoping that it doesn’t take an attack or some serious injury in every courtroom until we see all the courtrooms properly attired with the investments to make them safe workplaces to be. My question to you, Minister, is how many more courtrooms in Ontario are still without these essential safety measures? And if you cannot answer it here—I understand it’s a lot to respond to—are you willing to provide this answer to me in writing? I want to see a capital list of deficiencies of what is needed in order for every courtroom to have their state of repair fully fulfilled.
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
1:35 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
So security isn’t just a list; it’s an assessment in each area. It depends on the courthouse. It depends on what’s happening in that space. It’s not really a checklist of, “Here’s all the courthouses. Here’s all the courtrooms. Do they have this, this or this?” The assessment has to be done by the local police, whether it be OPP, North Bay, Toronto or whoever the local police are. They work with the ministry on the assessment. That security assessment is pretty pivotal to deciding what needs to happen in different spaces.
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I would say that we are never done with security. We’re always assessing and reassessing based on evolving facts.
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
Is it 50% complete? You know how many courtrooms there are. How many outstanding assessments?
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
They’ve been assessed since the beginning of time with the police doing the assessments and making recommendations and otherwise to government. It’s just unfortunate previous governments didn’t do anything about it.
1:36 p.m.Official transcript
1:37 p.m.Official transcript
MPP Kristyn Wong-Tam
Minister, you’ve had eight years to address the lack of security, the building deficiencies in those courtrooms. That’s eight years where we should have seen building assessments done. We should have seen a list that was provided to the people who use those courtrooms, and you should have allocated funding to it. I’m disappointed that you cannot answer this question. I’m disappointed that you believe that you need to continue to review. We’re looking for specifics, and, Minister, I was hoping you came prepared with more for this committee today.
1:37 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I understand that you would like me to give you a list of things that were assessed by the police. If the committee asked for something in that vein, then we’ll consider it. I can tell you that, just like personal safety, ongoing review is always important, depending on the context that you’re in and the place that you’re at and what is happening. So I actually find it odd that you think that safety is a one and done. It’s an ongoing part of our culture to make sure that our staff are safe and to make sure that our judicial partners are safe, and we’ll continue doing that very important work.
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Mr. Lorne Coe)
Thank you, Minister. Your time has elapsed. I’d like to move, please, to the third party with MPP Collard, s’il vous plaît.
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
Thank you for being here today, Ministers, for our annual meeting on the main estimates. It’s always a pleasure to go back and check about whatever improvements you might have been able to accomplish over the last year. I will start with maybe a simple and easy question. It looks like there is a $24-million increase for administration of justice. Can you tell the committee what taxpayers can be expecting as improvement as part of that additional money?
1:38 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
Absolutely, and thank you for the question. Taxpayers can expect to see their system work more efficiently. We’ve created capacity both electronically, human resources—the FTEs; we’ve increased judges. Of course, with judges comes capital, and so we’ve had to add to that as well. Just by scale, 300 judges was the Ontario Justice complement and it’s now 356. That’s a significant increase in capacity, plus the FTEs that go into it. What they can see is things moving more efficiently, things moving in greater volume—I touched on some of the volume earlier. You can also see that we’re doing things a little bit differently. Things like the justice centres, which are, again, dealing with individuals for what brought them there and not just what they did, are more resource-intensive, but they’re better for the entire system because they allow somebody to off-ramp from coming in contact with justice again. I’m sure you have more. I’ll stop there.
1:40 p.m.Official transcript
1:40 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
You did talk about efficiency, and part of that efficiency is reducing court delays. How is it—are you measuring that success in terms of reducing court delays?
1:40 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
We can measure by the volume of cases that come through the system. Some of the early numbers—the disposition of cases is just a hair under 250,000 per year at this point. It’s a very large number. In the past, it was not that high. Even though cases were coming in, they weren’t coming out of the system, and the backlog was being created. Those are some of the numbers that I mentioned. In 2023, we were clearing 104% of what was coming in. We’re seeing the effect of those investments by making people get an answer to the question they’re there for much earlier.
1:40 p.m.Official transcript
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
In relation to court delays, we have to look at the time to schedule a trial. Do you have data as to how long it takes, on average, for criminal matters, civil matters, family matters to get a scheduled trial?
1:41 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
We do have some data on that, of course. The MOU that we have with the judges—and there’s an individual memorandum of understanding with each judge—is that we can collect data, but we can’t release it without their consent. And so, there is data collection happening. Some of that I can share; some of it is more difficult to share. But I can tell you that the time to trial, on average, has come down in the criminal sector. We know that because section 11(b) Jordan matters have dropped. So we know that that’s happening, and we know our dispositions are up—our percentage of what’s going out versus what’s coming in.
1:42 p.m.Official transcript
1:42 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
I don’t know if you’ll have the answer to this, but you did mention that cases that had been thrown out based on the Jordan principle are something around 0.05%. Do you know how many of those cases would be in relation to sexual assault cases?
1:42 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I don’t have that at my fingertips. I can tell you, in terms of prioritization of matters, sexual assaults are a high priority. One is too many, absolutely, and we are going to drive to zero. We’re also working with the federal government on the very issue of Jordan, and we have a recent decision from the Supreme Court on how to calculate time for Jordan. That will also help. But we’re working with the federal government on potentially them bringing in legislation to actually help even more. We want the number to be zero.
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
From the estimates, we can tell how much is being spent, but we don’t really have information about whether the system has enough staff like court reporters, clerks, trial coordinators, interpreters and other professionals. How many court services positions are currently vacant across Ontario and what’s the vacancy rate?
1:43 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I don’t know if we have an answer on the vacancy rate from CSD, but I’ll tell you, the magnitude of the enterprise—we have about 10,000 staff in the Ministry of the Attorney General, so we are constantly recruiting, constantly. We are finding that we’re, in some areas—and I’ll pick on Ottawa because that’s the clearest. Because of competition for public jobs, it’s sometimes difficult to fill all of those spots, because the federal government is looking at the same pool of people and so there is a dynamic there. In other areas, there is no concern with recruitment. But we are constantly recruiting at court services division level for everything from clerks to—just everything, just absolutely everything—counter clerks—
1:44 p.m.Official transcript
1:44 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
I would like to ask the same question about the judiciary. Like, how many judges’ positions do you have and how many judges’ positions are currently vacant?
1:44 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
Yes, so again, fairly constant recruitment, and you can see on the website some of the positions that are open—so it is publicly available for many of them—due to illness, retirement and the additional that we’ve added. I can tell you, in sense of scale for turnover, in the seven years that I’ve been in this seat, I have appointed 181 judges. That’s a lot; that’s a lot of turnover, so we do constant recruitment. The committee—we changed how the judicial advisory committee operates so that it’s faster. They do interviews. If somebody is qualified, then they’re in a pool. There was one example where an individual was elevated to the Superior Court and within a couple of weeks, we were able to go in the pool and fill the spot. So that is moving faster. We are in—I shouldn’t guess, but we’re always in the 20-plus range to try and fill those spots. And if I can do a short advertisement, in the north, it’s sometimes harder to find individuals, and it’s just numbers. The bar of Timmins is about 45 people and they’re not all practising criminal law or family law or even interested in being a judge, so it’s that kind of thing.
1:46 p.m.Official transcript
1:46 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
So, linked to the shortage of staff, we have seen courtrooms unable to operate because there was just not enough staff. Do you know how many scheduled courtrooms were unable to operate because of that reason? Do you have that information or can you tell me which region was most affected by that type of closure?
1:46 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
Yes, that perception isn’t actually a reality today. That perception was rooted in when we first opened the Toronto courthouse, that billion-dollar state-of-the-art courthouse with 73 courtrooms. It’s an incredible, incredible building, but it’s like opening a new house; it’s like moving into a new house. There were bumps and there were glitches, but that got solved almost immediately by reallocating staff from other places. And the electronic—the hybrid hearings and otherwise helped facilitate that. So we’re just not having that issue.
1:47 p.m.Official transcript
1:47 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
Yes, so I’m trying to identify the reasons for the backlog. We looked at different things like positions and courtroom availability and all that. You’re saying it’s not that, so what is it that we need to address? If you’re saying that we’re able to have so many more hearings now, what’s creating the delay in people getting their day in court?
1:48 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
It’s just the magnitude of the volume. We are now over 100% of what comes in goes out, so we are clearing more cases than we’re bringing in. We’re taking the backlog down. That just doesn’t happen overnight; it’s a consistent, focused effort that we’ve been doing. It exists now because it existed before. It existed well before our government came in, but we got to work at it and we’re chipping it down.
1:48 p.m.Official transcript
1:48 p.m.Official transcript
1:48 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
One thing that would be very helpful to make a difference is to have more Superior Court judges.
1:48 p.m.Official transcript
1:48 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
But I don’t have any control over the Superior Court judges in terms of the allocation. What I have done in the Superior Court is added nine new associate judges, which sit in the Superior Court but we pay for them, as opposed to the Superior Court judges that are paid for by the federal government. So we’re doing more than our part to try and create capacity there, but I need the federal government to add more judges to the system.
1:49 p.m.Official transcript
1:49 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
I will turn to victim services. I’m trying to understand what the $27-million reduction looks like. The voted estimates show victim services decreasing by approximately $12.7 million and victim/witness assistance decreasing by $13.8 million. At the same time, almost $59 million appears as a statutory transfer from the victim services fund. Can you explain what has changed in the funding model?
1:50 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I’m happy to explain it, because I can understand it would be a little confusing. There has been no reduction across the system, but there has been a realignment of who does what. We wanted the Ministry of the Attorney General to focus on victims and victim services that are courtroom-based or that directly connected to trials. The other victim services were transferred to MCCSS and to other places where it made more sense for them to be, because they already had existing programs or supports. So there was a reorganization of the victim services funding for some of that. I have a quick note from MCCSS that they’ve invested $1.4 billion over the duration of a plan to end gender-based violence. They were in a better position to do some of the work than we were. That’s what you’re seeing: the shifting between departments.
1:50 p.m.Official transcript
1:50 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
Again with victim services: The estimates identified millions of dollars in transfer payments for victim services that include partner assault response programs, special victims’ projects, the child victims’ program and civil remedies grants. I think those are all under your purview. I’m just wondering if it would be possible at all to supply the committee with a complete list of every community organization that is receiving funding from vote 306 in 2026-27, the program under which they receive money and the amount allocated to each organization. And maybe provide the comparable amounts to 2025-26, just to see if there have been reductions and what organizations are getting to deal with their mandate.
1:51 p.m.Official transcript
1:51 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
So I don’t know if you want to talk about PAR a little bit, in terms of what’s happening there, but I’ll start and just say: Some organizations will receive more, some will receive less, depending on what programs they’re running and depending on their capacity. So where it’s a transfer to a third-party agency, it often depends on what it is they’re asking for and what it is they’re planning to deliver. The most important thing is to know that there has not been a net reduction in investments in this area. In fact, there’s been an increase across all of our ministries to deal with human trafficking and gender-based violence and other matters.
1:52 p.m.Official transcript
1:52 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
I want to talk about the new cash bail rules. So the court has suspended the application of the bail rules—
1:52 p.m.Official transcript
The Chair (Mr. Lorne Coe)
Excuse me, Madame Collard, you have one minute and 15 seconds.
1:52 p.m.Official transcript
Mme Lucille Collard
Thank you for letting me know. Just after two weeks, after the bill was enacted, do you know how many people whose bail had been stayed were in jail because they could not pay? Like how, during those two weeks, where the bail was in effect—before the court suspended them.
1:52 p.m.Official transcript
Hon. Doug Downey
I’ll answer very succinctly: It’s not how the system was set up and not how it works. They were released when a judge or a JP decides they should be released. Then they need to post their bail, and then we’ll take action if they don’t post it. In no circumstance is somebody not released because they didn’t post their bail. But I’m happy to talk more about how it’s set up and how it mechanically works.
1:53 p.m.Official transcript
1:53 p.m.Official transcript
1:53 p.m.Official transcript