Thursday, October 1, 2026

The committee met at 1002 in committee room 1.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

Good morning. The Standing Committee on the Interior will now come to order. The committee is set to resume consideration of the 2026-27 estimates. Up next for consideration is the Ministry of Northern Economic Development and Growth, for a total of two hours. As a reminder to any ministry staff appearing today, when you are called on to speak for the first time, please state your name and your title so that it may be accurately recorded in Hansard. Are there any questions from the committee members? Seeing none, I am now required to call vote 2201, which sets the review process in motion. We will begin with a statement of not more than 20 minutes from the Minister of Northern Economic Development and Growth. The remaining time will be allotted for questions and answers in rotations of 15 minutes for each of the recognized parties. As always, please remember to make your comments through the Chair. Minister Pirie, the floor is yours.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

Good morning, everyone. It’s a pleasure to be here once again to address the Standing Committee on the Interior. I look forward to speaking about the important work and the key initiatives of the Ministry of Northern Economic Development and Growth and answering questions from the committee about how we are working towards our commitment to supporting a prosperous northern Ontario. I would like to introduce the ministry officials who are here with me today. Joining me is Deputy Minister Drew Vanderduim. I’m also joined by two assistant deputy ministers: Richard Scott, assistant deputy minister of the northern development division, and Scott Mantle, chief administrative officer and assistant deputy minister of the corporate management division. And lastly, I am joined by Liam McGill, executive director of the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corp. I want to thank my senior officials for joining me today before the committee. Northern Ontario: As you know, the Ministry of Northern Economic Development and Growth is dedicated to unlocking the full potential of Ontario’s vast northern region and the people and communities that call it home. Northern Ontario spans roughly 806,000 square kilometres and accounts for approximately 88% of the province’s land mass. It is one of the largest northern regions in Canada and has unique opportunities and challenges for economic development, infrastructure and service delivery. The north has a distinctive combination of assets and strengths that set it apart. It is home to some of the world’s most significant deposits of critical minerals and precious metals. It plays a vital role in supporting Ontario’s manufacturing, construction and clean technology sectors. It is a global leader in mining expertise and innovation, helping to position Ontario as a world-class mining jurisdiction. Its forests support an evolving forestry sector that contributes to local economies and provides materials used across Canada and around the world. It is rich in freshwater resources, with thousands of lakes and rivers that support communities, industries, tourism and clean energy generation. Its strategic location provides access to domestic and international markets through road, rail, air and marine transportation networks. It is also home to a growing agriculture sector, with millions of acres of arable land supporting crop production, livestock farming and opportunities for agri-food growth. Together, these assets position northern Ontario to play an increasingly important role in strengthening Ontario’s supply chains, attracting investment, and supporting long-term economic growth and prosperity across the province. And northern Ontario has never been better positioned to help advance our government’s plan to protect Ontario for the long term. These strengths also make our mandate clear: to advance economic and community development across northern Ontario through partnerships and solutions that reflect the unique needs, opportunities and priorities of the north. We are committed to building a stronger, resilient and more self-reliant north by supporting businesses, communities and industries across the region. Our ministry continues to deliver programs and services that create jobs, attract investment and increase competitiveness in northern Ontario. Through a network of regional offices and integrated area teams located in 21 communities across the north, we support business growth, innovation, trade, investment attraction and economic diversification. We are also working to ensure all northern communities are well positioned to benefit from emerging economic opportunities and long-term growth. At the same time, we continue to make strategic investments in critical transportation infrastructure, helping people and goods move safely and efficiently. Through close collaboration with municipalities, northern communities, industry partners and stakeholders, we are ensuring northern Ontario’s priorities are reflected in government decision-making, and helping unlock new opportunities across the region. We are promoting the north’s strengths to domestic and international investors, attracting new investment and helping northern businesses pursue opportunities across Canada and around the world. And we continue to lead trade missions and participate in major mining, agriculture and innovation events in Canada and internationally to attract investment and connect northern businesses with new markets. Together, these efforts strengthen northern Ontario’s position in domestic and international markets and lay a strong foundation for long-term economic growth and prosperity across the region. Northern Ontario has extraordinary, untapped potential that can help drive Ontario’s economic future as we respond to changing global trade dynamics and strengthen domestic supply chains. We have the capacity to be a true economic powerhouse. That is why I’m pleased to share some of the ministry’s programs and initiatives that help create strong, healthy and connected northern communities where hard-working Ontarians can live, work and do business. Northern Ontario is a beautiful, immense and diverse region and one whose tremendous potential is only beginning to be realized. It truly is a vast and incredible piece of the province. When it comes to building a stronger and more competitive northern economy, the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corp., or NOHFC, remains one of our government’s key tools. The NOHFC fosters economic growth, job creation and workforce development throughout the north, benefiting communities of all sizes, both rural and urban, including Indigenous communities. Since June 2018, the NOHFC has invested more than $1.1 billion in approximately 8,940 projects, leveraging more than $3.4 billion in investment and creating or sustaining over 13,850 jobs in the north. This includes 650 jobs in the agriculture sector; 1,490 jobs in the forestry sector; 1,560 jobs in the advanced manufacturing sector; 1,500 jobs in the tourism sector; and 1,450 jobs in the mining supply and services sector. As we address trade challenges, these investments are more important than ever. In fact, in June 2025, our ministry announced the refocusing of the heritage fund to prioritize investments that protect northern industries and jobs, mitigate the impacts of unjustified US tariffs and trade disruptions, and secure new opportunities for the long-term prosperity of the north. Here are a few examples of recently announced projects funded through our refocused NOHFC programs: The Peninsula Harbour Port Authority received $2 million to repurpose unused commercial docks in Marathon, at the site of the former Marathon pulp mill, to create a marine terminal for shipping regional materials such as critical minerals, forest products, road salts and components for pipelines and wind turbines to southern Ontario and customers across the globe. Koch Grain Elevator Inc. received $1 million to build, in co-operation with Ontario Northland railway, a grain transloading facility on its property in Earlton, helping northern farms improve operations and boost competitiveness in domestic and global markets. With responsive programming, the NOHFC continues to serve as a catalyst for economic growth across the north. We are proud of the work we have done to refocus its programming on protecting northern Ontario from economic uncertainty, and we’ll continue to build on its great success. The Veterinary Assistance Program: To better support large animal veterinary services in northern and rural communities, we have modernized the Veterinary Assistance Program, or VAP. By improving access to veterinary services in underserved areas of northern and rural Ontario, VAP helps strengthen animal health, safeguard the food supply and support the economic resilience of farmers. The program provides conditional grants to designated large animal veterinarians to help offset costs associated with delivering on-farm care, including travel, locum assistance and continuing education. As part of the first comprehensive review of the program since 2004, we engaged veterinarians, agriculture producers and other stakeholders to identify opportunities to better meet the needs of today’s livestock industry. Based on that feedback, we launched a redesigned VAP in April 2026. Key enhancements include expanded eligibility, streamlined administration and updated compensation. Previously, vets applied to a local committee, which recommended them to a central committee, which then recommended them to the ministry. Now vets can go straight to the ministry to access the program. These changes strengthen veterinary service delivery, support the livestock industry, and help create conditions for continued agricultural growth across northern Ontario. We will continue working with veterinarians and agricultural producers to ensure the program evolves to meet the changing needs of the sector. NORDS: Another important issue is the Northern Ontario Resource Development Support Fund, also referred to as NORDS. Resource development, in sectors such as mining, forestry and agriculture, is critical to achieving economic prosperity in the north. However, to enable resource development, we must ensure that communities have the capacity to manage the increased use of local infrastructure. NORDS was established to help municipalities maintain and enhance their municipal infrastructure, creating more opportunities for sustainable long-term growth and development. Launched in 2021, NORDS provides $15 million annually for northern municipalities to support investments in municipal infrastructure projects. All 144 northern Ontario municipalities, as defined under the Places to Grow Act, 2005, are eligible to receive funding under this program. Since its inception, NORDS has provided $75 million to fund municipal infrastructure programs across the north. In 2025-26, all 140 municipalities received NORDS funding to advance key projects, including the town of Kapuskasing, which received $196,000 to reconstruct its King Street water and sewer main. The city of Greater Sudbury received $400,000 for its Elm Street CPR overpass. Sioux Lookout received $97,000 for its Sioux Narrows landfill project. The municipality of Greenstone received over $150,000 to rehabilitate the main road in the Geraldton ward. Initially established as a five-year program set to expire in 2026, I was proud to announce this past April that NORDS will continue as a permanent annual fund. By making NORDS ongoing, we are providing northern municipalities with greater certainty and predictable support for the infrastructure that underpins resource development. Berens River bridge and roads project: We’re also proud of the progress on the Berens River bridge and roads project, a joint initiative with the federal government that will establish an all-season road and permanent bridge across the Berens River, connecting Pikangikum First Nation to Ontario’s highway network and improving winter road access for six neighbouring First Nation communities. The Whitefeather Forest Community Resource Management Authority, a not-for-profit corporation established by Pikangikum First Nation, is leading the project. The project will create new opportunities, including sustainable forest management, improved transportation safety, enhanced access to essential goods and services, and strengthened conditions needed for long-term investment and economic growth. Once complete, Pikangikum First Nation will have year-round road access, while Poplar Hill, McDowell Lake, North Spirit Lake, Keewaywin, Sandy Lake and Deer Lake First Nations will benefit from improved winter road connections. The bridge and road network will eliminate the lengthy and potentially hazardous ice crossing currently required to access Pikangikum First Nation and the broader winter roads system.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

I am proud to say that construction activities have begun, with the official start beginning this past spring. Once complete, the bridge will be the first of its kind in Canada to incorporate mass-timber structural components into major transportation infrastructure. The project will showcase innovative wood construction techniques while creating new opportunities for sustainable forestry activity in the Whitefeather Forest. Our government and Indigenous Services Canada are jointly funding this landmark initiative through agreements with the Whitefeather Forest Community Resource Management Authority and Pikangikum First Nation, reflecting a strong partnership in support of northern and Indigenous communities. This initiative reflects our government’s commitment to ensuring that residents in every part of the province, including remote northern communities, have access to safe, reliable transportation infrastructure and the opportunities that come with it. Northern highways program: One of our most important pieces of infrastructure in the north is our highway network. Our government is investing in highways in the north to improve road safety, connect communities and unlock economic opportunities. Through the northern highways program, the ministry continues to make strategic investments to expand the northern highway network and rehabilitate critical infrastructure, including roads, bridges and culverts. For the 2026-27 fiscal year, we are investing $468.5 million towards the northern highways program. Our ministry establishes and manages the budget of the annual program, and the Ministry of Transportation is responsible for highway construction and maintenance in northern Ontario. Some ongoing projects include: —widening Highway 69 from two to four lanes between Parry Sound and Sudbury, with four of six remaining sections expected to be under heavy construction by the end of next year; —widening Highway 11/17 from two to four lanes between Thunder Bay and the Manitoba border, including construction recently commencing to widen the route from McGuire Road to Coughlin Road; —rehabilitating Highway 17 from south of Echo Bay to Highway 548, supporting the safe and efficient movement of people and goods along a vital transportation and trade corridor; and —upgrading the provincial rest area network in northern Ontario, providing more year-round truck parking. We’re also replacing the Hearst truck inspection station, with the scope of work including demolition of the existing structure, which is currently under way, scale replacement and the addition of a new pre-engineered building. As these examples demonstrate, the northern highways program is connecting people, goods and essential services, while supporting economic development and ensuring that northern Ontario’s highways remain safe and reliable. Winter Roads Program: For communities without year-round access to the provincial highway network, the ministry’s Winter Roads Program provides critical seasonal access. The winter roads network enables more than 24,000 people living in remote communities to transport essential goods and supplies, including food, fuel, medical supplies and construction materials. We recognize the importance of a reliable winter roads system, which is why we continue to invest in improving the safety, reliability and resilience of the network. Having recently travelled on the winter roads, I gained a deeper appreciation of the importance of these connections and the work required each year to keep them operational for northern residents. This past winter, we supported 32 remote First Nation communities and the town of Moosonee in the construction and maintenance of approximately 3,200 kilometres of temporary snow and ice roads. The Winter Roads Program consists of two funding streams: the base funding stream, which supports the construction and maintenance of winter roads; and the bridges and culverts stream, launched in 2023, which supports the installation of pre-engineered bridges and culverts to improve safety and help extend the winter roads season. The Winter Roads Program enables First Nation communities to lead project planning and delivery, reflecting our commitment to Indigenous reconciliation and community-led infrastructure development. We are also currently implementing changes to the program to encourage the use of Canadian steel in eligible bridge projects, where feasible. Algoma Steel: Beyond supporting community connectivity and infrastructure in the north, our government is also focused on supporting the industries that help build and sustain that infrastructure. This includes promoting the use of Canadian steel in infrastructure projects and supporting major northern manufacturers like Algoma Steel, a key contributor to northern Ontario’s economy. We recognize that Algoma Steel is a significant part of the economy in northern Ontario and a major private sector employer in manufacturing. In September 2025, in partnership with the federal government, we announced $500 million in support to help Algoma Steel maintain operations, pivot away from our reliance on US markets and support economic growth in the north in response to changing market conditions and tariffs targeting Canada’s steel sector. The investment reflects a coordinated effort to safeguard Ontario’s steel industry and ensure long-term competitiveness. This past February, we announced that Algoma Steel shipped its first plates of Ontario steel to Davie in Quebec, where they will be used to build the Canadian Coast Guard’s new icebreaking vessel, the Polar Max. My ministry continues to champion northern Ontario’s strengths in advanced manufacturing, critical minerals and steel production to strengthen domestic supply chains, unlock trade within Canada and position the province as a trusted partner ready to meet growing global demand. Let me conclude by saying that I hope today’s discussion will provide a clearer picture of the important work our ministry is undertaking to support communities, businesses and workers across northern Ontario. In the face of ongoing economic uncertainty and external pressures, including US tariffs imposed without any rationale, we are taking action to build the north’s economy and ensure greater resilience for the future. The programs and investments I have highlighted today—

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

One minute left.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

—demonstrate how, together with our partners, we are creating opportunities, supporting economic growth and strengthening communities across the region and pivoting away from our reliance on the US. We remain committed to making northern Ontario one of the best places in the world to invest, work and raise a family. Thank you. I look forward to continuing our discussion.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

Thank you, Minister. We will start with the first round of questions. We will go to the official opposition. MPP Mamakwa, the floor is yours. You have 15 minutes.

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

Meegwetch, Minister, for your presentation. I know you talk about “rich in resources” up in northern Ontario—but first I’d like to acknowledge the government for yesterday, being National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, also known as Orange Shirt Day, having very minimal business here at the Legislature, and the government business, that pausing it was a good thing. So thank you for that. Again, you speak about being a prosperous northern Ontario. You speak about “rich in resources,” and I think when you talk about resources, one of the things, being from where I am, in the riding of Kiiwetinoong—I know we are rich in culture, we are rich in language, we are rich in our ways of life, we are rich in the animals and the fish that live in these forests and these waters, we are rich in the trees and the things that we do. And I think that’s a very different perspective for us when we talk about that type of thing. One of the things you talk about—prosperous northern Ontario. I’m going to share some costs for flights from three First Nations to Thunder Bay: Sandy Lake to Thunder Bay is $1,480.59; Wunnumin Lake to Thunder Bay is $1,849.02; Fort Severn, the most northerly community in the province, to Thunder Bay is $2,404.11. You talk about prosperity when you talk about First Nations. What money or resources is the ministry spending to support the efficient movement of people living in northern, fly-in First Nations, who face extremely unaffordable prices to fly in and out of their communities?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

Thank you very much for the question. I’ve outlined a little bit of what we’re doing on the Winter Roads Program. I touched on the Berens River bridge and roads project. That has a significant impact on the transportation of people and materials into that section of the world. We have an active file on establishing and expanding those roads—

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

I’m not talking about roads. I’m talking about the flights. There is always going to be a need for flights. Roads take hours to get to Thunder Bay. It takes two days from Fort Severn to Thunder Bay, because you’ve got to go to Manitoba—but that’s only two, three months out of the year. I’m talking about flights.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

As you know, it’s not our ministry’s responsibility for that. That’s another ministry that handles the transportation, so we have no direct investment or funds available for the flights.

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

Okay, that answers my question. Thank you. Minister, one of the things that happened in Manitoba is that they will no longer be switching their clocks come November 1 and they will be observing a permanent daylight time. This means that several months of the year, people living in northwestern Ontario will be awkwardly, I guess, so to speak, in their own isolated time zone come November 1. Manitoba will be on Eastern Time, and then Thunder Bay and the rest of Ontario will be on Eastern Time—you have this island of Central Time that Kiiwetinoong and part of the Kenora–Rainy River riding will be in. We have heard concerns regarding challenges it would cause for communities, First Nations, municipalities, hospitals. It has an impact, when we talk about business, when we talk about trade. I’m wondering if your ministry has done any projections or planning on what the impact of Manitoba’s decision might be on northwestern Ontario.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

Thank you very much for the question. I agree with you; it’s a serious situation. The solution has to be a national solution. I think the Premiers and the Prime Minister really have to get together and determine what’s the best solution. Having two hours’ difference between Dryden and Winnipeg is untenable. But that solution rests at a higher level.

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

I’m going to go to northern highways. One of the ministry’s key performance indicators is its progress towards the outcome that “northern economic and social development is supported through the safe and efficient movement of people and goods in northern Ontario.” That’s on page 26. I know that the ministry tracks the percentage of highways in good condition in northern Ontario, but the briefing book does not explain what “good condition” is. I drive those highways quite often. The briefing book does not show how it is tracked. The target value is listed at 67%, with the current value being 72%, above the target. Minister, too many people in northern Ontario are grieving for their loved ones who died on these northern highways. Why is the target value of 67% of northern highways in good condition acceptable to this ministry?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

The first thing I’d like to say is, I extend my condolences to anybody who has lost their life on any highway across any part of Ontario. I can tell you that the ministry is totally committed to improving the safety and the condition of these highways. When we talk about safety across the north on these highways, this truly is non-partisan. We deal, and we’ve got tremendous partnerships, with the Indigenous communities, but NORDS—or FONOM and NOMA, and the two mayors who lead those two associations that represent all of the cities across northern Ontario. You know that, with the Minister of Transportation, myself and the head of FONOM and NOMA—we made a presentation to the federal government to ensure and ask that the federal government designate these highways of national importance. We all supported it. When I say this is a non-partisan issue—the next day, we supported MPP Vanthof’s resolution to that same effect. So I’d have to say that we’re on the same page regarding safety and highway safety across the north. That includes the Premier of Ontario, who’s adamant that these highways get improved.

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

Meegwetch. Thank you for the answer. I’m going to continue on with northern highways, but specifically on transportation infrastructure. In looking at the briefing book, pages 70 and 71 show a chart for the capital assets account for the northern development program, which supports provincial investments in northern highways. The table shows that the amount spent on asset costs for transportation infrastructure has been decreasing, from over $600 million in 2024-25 to $529 million in 2025-26, and now with an estimated $468.5 million for 2026-27. Minister, can you explain why this government is cutting expenditures to northern highway transportation infrastructure while there are too many people continuing to die on our northern highways?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

Let’s correct that misconception: That’s the difference between invested and actual expenditures. You’ll see that we’re committed to over $600 million. It’s a matter of timing between fiscal years, but we’re committed to over $600 million. So our commitments continue to increase.

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

Also, on page 70, it says that a function of these expenditures is the “continued implementation” of the government’s northern highways strategy. Can the minister share how much money is being allocated to improving safety on our northern highways?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

Well, I’ll tell you, every dollar we spend on highways is spent to improve the safety of those highways. When we talk about over $60 million committed, we’re talking about passing lanes; we’re talking about paved shoulders; we’re talking about expanding—we just had an announcement in Thunder Bay. That facility is about a year old. That’s a $30-million facility for truck inspection that will be manned 24 hours a day, and that will save lives. We’ve announced, as I said in my opening remarks, the areas in Hearst that will have areas big enough—when you have a storm, the trucks have to be pulled over. Hearst will have a large parking lot capable of holding those trucks; Matheson will have another one. Those are the types of investments that we’re making on a regular basis to ensure the safety of our highways is guaranteed. I drive the highways all the time, as you do. And quite frankly, I don’t know how you could get another paving contractor involved, because everybody is busy, whether it’s in northeastern Ontario, northwestern Ontario. There’s more paving going on now than I’ve ever seen in my life. Without a doubt, the highways from Cochrane back over to North Bay have never been in better shape. We saw significant increases in spending on those highways themselves. Obviously, every single dollar that we’re spending is to increase the safety of our highways.

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

You spoke about the announcement that you made in Thunder Bay last week—how many kilometres of that is that announcement?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

I can pull it out here.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

One minute.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

It’s multi-million—and I can get back to you with the exact figure, on the monies that were spent on that section of the road.

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

I was just going to say that Highway 11/17 is at least—what we talked about earlier—about 2,000 kilometres, right? I just wanted to know how many kilometres were announced for the million dollars that was announced. Anyway, I’m done my 15 minutes.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

We’ll move to the third party. MPP Smyth, the floor is yours.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

It’s nice to be here with you all today. Minister, if you could tell us—and we heard your opening remarks—what is your impression right now of the success of the mandate of your ministry for northern Ontario? If you were to say northern Ontario’s economic development is going gangbusters and where you want it to be and is firing on all those cylinders, do you believe we’re seeing the best improvements in northern Ontario economically, from a broad perspective? I know we can drill down. But the impression you have—is it where you want it to be right now?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

I’ll tell you that northern Ontario’s economy is booming. The minerals sector—precious metals and critical minerals and base metals—is booming. The exploration sector is booming. The agriculture sector is booming. We’ve got farmers in northeastern Ontario and northern—well, I’ll talk about northeastern Ontario. They’re developing 6,000 acres as we speak. The Great Clay Belt contains 10 million acres of arable land. That’s equal to the arable land in southern Ontario, and it’s more than the arable land in Manitoba. The Lesser Clay Belt in the New Liskeard area is absolutely booming. It looks terrific. The crops are amazing. The investment that we’ve secured through tile drainage and ensuring that the agricultural sector is expanding is exactly what we would want achieved. Northwestern Ontario has clay belts, as well, that are being expanded. Quite frankly, we have the ability to feed the world in the agricultural sector. The forestry sector, under 51% tariffs, of course, is in a different status. However, I strongly believe in the future of the forestry sector because of the quality of the fibre basket in northern Ontario. It is actually the best. When we look at a level playing field—and we’ll take a look at Georgia-Pacific in Englehart. That company, by themselves, on their own dollar, spent over $200 million to expand that facility. That’s a US company, and they’ve got rival facilities in the States, but they will tell you that they’re expanding there because of the quality of the fibre in that facility. Because they’re value-added, they don’t have any tariffs—but on an equal basis, we are the best in the world. The other area, of course, we’re expanding is in the value-added sector. The biodiesel, the pilot project that’s happening right now in Thunder Bay—that’s being led by one of the Irving family, Jamie Irving—has the potential to provide the diesel and the aviation fuel from a fibre mass. That’s an incredible opportunity and it’s, as you know—nothing new about biomass, but it’s the new technology that they’re using that makes it profitable. It will be a boon to every single small community we have in northern Ontario, because you have to have an economic radius around that biofuel diesel. It’s not one big project—it could be Thunder Bay, it could be Chapleau, it could be Timmins, it could be Cochrane. But that’s the beauty of that facility—to be self-sufficient in fuel.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

Your messaging is that everything is going gangbusters and it’s fantastic in the north. Having travelled the north several times and been in many communities—they wouldn’t say the same thing. There are problems economically. There are problems with jobs, health care. There are the jobs that—people just don’t want to go there to work, necessarily, which is problematic. I think my colleague touched on another huge issue in the north, which is—and we can go through to others as well—the highways. We know that drivers on the northern highways in this province are three times more likely to die in an accident than in southern Ontario, with some stretches having a fatality rate nine times higher. That comes from FONOM. The statistics are frightening. I want to drill down again about the investments into the highways. Minister, people are dying on Highways 11 and 17, we heard over and over again, yet your ministry has cut northern highway investments by $150 million since 2024-25. So how do you justify that to the families who have lost loved ones?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

Thank you very much for the question, but I think we covered that already. We have commitments for over $600 million. That’s the highest amount of dollars invested in highways, forever. As I said, this is explained by a timing difference between investments and commitments. We are spending over $600 million and committed on the northern highways, and it’s all designed to make the highways safer. Obviously, you understand fully that the highways have never been busier either. Three years ago, four years ago, “mining” was a dirty word. Because of our government’s policies is why the northern economy is booming. That’s why the truck traffic has increased by 100%. There are trucks that are travelling across northern Ontario that won’t cross in the northern states. Our government is responding—and you must also understand, our government is the only government that has ever built four-lane highways in the north. Our government is making the investments because they believe in the future of the northern economy and the people of northern Ontario.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

We know, and you’ve just talked about, how important those corridors are in the north for the east-west trade. And you’ve talked about reducing the provincial trade barriers. But you’re still not fully committed to twinning the highways so we can get people moving and goods moving. Why?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

It’s interesting that you phrase it that way. Again, this is a non-partisan issue. We’ve travelled with FONOM and NOMA because they realize, and we realize, that they represent all of the mayors and all of the municipalities in northern Ontario, working together. They’re great partners working to help advance the safety of the roads. We made a joint presentation with the federal Minister of Infrastructure so that the federal government would designate these highways as of national importance. As you know, this is a vast and magnificent land. There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of kilometres of roads. We need a partner, and the partner has been the federal government. As I said, the next day after we met the minister in Ottawa, we all supported Mr. Vanthof’s resolution.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

What’s the timeline commitment?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

We got the timeline commitment for Highway 69. We’ve told you that the heavy construction will be happening in 2028, and we’ve got the priorities designed. It’s not going to be built overnight. We’re constructing passing lanes, we’re putting in paving shoulders, and we’re putting parking areas. We’re also putting in more stringent enforcement, so that the bad actors will be eliminated off the roads.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

So what’s the timeline for Highways 11 and 17?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

Pardon me?

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

The timeline for Highways 11 and 17—a lot of the funding is committed over 10 years, but do you know what? They need better highways now, not 10 years from now.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

They are getting better highways right now. We’re spending the money to make those highways better. We’re also putting in these portable signs and permanent signs that will advise the drivers exactly what the conditions are—

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

So—

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

—that they’re driving in.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

Sorry, what were you saying?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

You’ve travelled in the north, so you’ve seen the signs that tell the oncoming traffic what the conditions are that they’re facing. We’re expanding that, as well, so people will know what the conditions are that they’re driving into. As you know, it takes 10 hours to go from Timmins to Thunder Bay, and the weather changes between highways—

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

We’ve heard the horror stories of the weather changing and the roads being shut down—absolutely.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

The ministry can’t control the weather, but we can control how much advance notice we have for the individuals who are driving on these roads.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

Again, can you give northerners a firm date on when the four-laning between Thunder Bay and Nipigon is going to be finished from end to end?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

We’ve made a commitment that we’re improving the highway standards, and we’re spending more every single year to make that happen.

Official source

MPP Stephanie Smyth

I was listening to my colleague speak about access to the north and the cost of flights, which was astonishing to me. We always know it’s a little bit more expensive to travel in this country domestically, but to be in the thousands of dollars in northern Ontario, for more remote communities, is unthinkable. And you said, “That’s not my ministry.” Would you ever think to advocate on behalf of the people in the Far North with the ministry you see—transportation, what it might be—to do something about the costs?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

It’s kind of surprising that you ask me that question. As an individual who has lived in the north, raised in the north—to insinuate that I don’t support less-cost transportation is, quite frankly, stunning to me. The fact that you don’t know that the vast territory that we have to cross together is going to cost some money stuns me, as well. It’s a great, big, broad province. It costs money to go across. It costs money to transport goods. It’s surprising to me that you don’t know it costs money to go across northern Ontario.

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

I think we all know it costs money to travel, period—

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Hon. George Pirie

You said it surprised you.

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

But the amount that was for flights—in terms of accessibility for people to move within the province, it seems like it could be something that could be prioritized. Given that you know so much about it and you care so much, I would think that you would want to advocate and see that happen. That’s all I’m saying. Is it not something that you could see would be reasonable—to say, “What can we do about this?”

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Hon. George Pirie

As a private individual, everybody advocates for that. But it’s not in my mandate—

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

I understand it’s not in your mandate. Absolutely—

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Hon. George Pirie

The way I advocate for that is within the other ministries and with the federal government.

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

Understood. It’s not your mandate. I was just commenting that $2,000 for a northern flight—anyway, when the highways are always a concern. Let’s move on and talk about the winter roads and remote access. You spent about $18 million on winter roads last year, and you budgeted only $11 million. So, this year, can you explain the reasons behind the drop in the funding for the winter roads?

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Hon. George Pirie

It’s not a drop in funding. We’ve got two streams of winter funding; one is building the roads, and one is enhancing the winter roads.

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

Sorry. Say that again.

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Hon. George Pirie

There are two streams in the Winter Roads Program; one is building the roads, and one is a separate stream for culverts, that is designed to enhance the winter roads, to extend the life of the winter roads and extend the season of the winter roads.

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

In your briefing book, there’s an admission that climate change is shortening the winter roads season. How many ice crossings still have no permanent bridge, and is there a timeline to replace them?

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Hon. George Pirie

Our budget is set up so that the winter roads are controlled by the Indigenous communities, and they choose the priorities in relation to the bridges and the culverts that they want to be replaced.

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

What work does the ministry do to assess the conditions and the safety of the winter roads and evaluate where the needs are? What kind of performance indicators do you use?

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Hon. George Pirie

I drive them. I’m the only minister who drove the winter roads. I was up in Moosonee in the wintertime. I’m the only minister who ever did that.

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

If winter roads happen to fail this year, what would you say is the plan to get the food, the fuel and the medical supplies into remote First Nations?

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Hon. George Pirie

They have to be flown.

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MPP Stephanie Smyth

With the temps rising—we’re talking about climate change—do you expect that winter road maintenance costs will increase significantly in coming years? What plans are there?

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Hon. George Pirie

You only have to maintain them if you can build them.

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The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

One minute.

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Hon. George Pirie

If the season is shorter, of course the cost of maintenance is going to be less, but that’s not the case—that’s not what you’re talking about. You’re talking about the ability to get permanent road infrastructure into the First Nations communities. That’s what you’re talking about. Winter roads are the only way the majority of First Nations communities in northwestern Ontario have an opportunity to travel into the remote communities and a large part of northeastern Ontario as well. You talked about climate change. The biggest factor in climate change here is going to be El Niño, and it’s going to be a super-El Niño. No ministry can control that. If the ground isn’t freezing, you can’t build a winter road.

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The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

We’ll move to the government side. MPP Gallagher Murphy, the floor is yours.

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Mme Dawn Gallagher Murphy

Thank you, Minister, for being here today, and thank you for your remarks this morning and your responses so far. My question will be related to northern tourism. After having just returned from being in the north—well, the Sault Ste. Marie area—the colours are absolutely phenomenal, and Lake Superior is beyond words in description. When I think about tourism in the north, I’m thinking about fishing. I know a lot of people, even Americans, who come up to fish in our great north. There’s hunting season, as well. Minister, with ongoing trade tensions and economic attacks from the US currently, many Canadians are choosing to spend their tourism dollars right here at home, which is a great thing. Tourism, as we all know, is a vital part of northern Ontario’s economy. It supports local businesses, and it creates jobs. In your remarks, I noted you mentioned 1,500 jobs in tourism in the north, which is amazing. It also strengthens communities across our region. I know you’ve often said that northern Ontario is home to some of the most beautiful landscapes. I haven’t been in the Far North, but from what I’ve seen thus far, yes, I would agree with you. Given the region’s incredible opportunities to attract more visitors looking for that outdoor experience, can you share how your ministry is helping make northern Ontario that destination of choice while supporting continued growth of the region’s tourism sector?

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Hon. George Pirie

Thank you very much for the question. It is a very important question. I would also like to say that in our announcements, in our conversations with all people across northern Ontario, we welcome the visitor from the US as well. It’s a very important part of the tourism industry in northwestern Ontario—and northeastern as well—so although we’re having a trade war with President Trump, the visitors from the US, we welcome. I don’t think there’s a more beautiful place in the world than northern Ontario. Of course, I’m biased because that’s where I’m from. I often have said that Thunder Bay is the most beautiful city on the Great Lakes, and I’ve said that publicly. I said it one time in front of the Premier—“Sorry, Premier, but Thunder Bay is the most beautiful city there is on the Great Lakes.” I’ll talk a little about that trip on the winter roads from Abitibi Canyon back into Moose Factory and Moosonee. When you get in the expanses of the plateaus in the James Bay frontier, there’s a beauty there. It’s vast, it’s surreal, and it’s in the frontier. If you travel further up into Fort Albany and Attawapiskat and you experience the vastness of those river basins, I think you would have to be a person without spirit not to be moved by those locations. We have a number of things that we’ve invested over the number of years that we have been involved—not just me, but in the investment in tourism. And we’re making those investments on a regular basis. You know that we’ve got destinations like Kakabeka Falls in Thunder Bay, the swinging bridge in Little Current, the polar bear habitat in Cochrane, and the wolf habitat in Timmins. Thanks to the contributions for many of our 35 municipalities across northern Ontario—my own and ministry social media highlight the incredible tourism experiences, destinations and natural beauty that make the north such a unique place to visit. Quite often, we just don’t step off the path normally taken, step off the highways and look at these phenomenal falls that exist just off the roads. You can travel from Gogama up to Timmins and you’re going to see the Kenogamissi Falls. Unless you step in there and take a look at it, you’re not going to see the vast beauty of that set of falls. The Grassy River in Timmins has High Falls. We’ve got trails to get there. The Kamiskotia River has got a set of 32 rapids and falls that we’re working to get—to see the municipality build trails, to fund these natural experiences that we have. Again, we want to ensure that the tourist dollars stay closer to home. We recognize the important role tourism plays in the local economies across the region. That’s why we made strategic investments in the fund to ensure that the experience is rewarded. We spent $178,000 for the township of Ear Falls to improve safety and accessibility along its walking trails and waterfront areas. Another investment of $200,000 to the snowmobiling club in Moonbeam, in the Kapuskasing and Hearst area—I’ll tell you, we’ve been there, and it’s probably the best snowmobiling trail that you’re going to have in Ontario. It’s really a fantastic experience. Again, this is a facility that’s an important stop along a beautifully maintained top A trail between Hearst and Cochrane. It gives visitors a warm place to take a break, enjoy a meal from its newly renovated kitchen, and experience the hospitality that northern Ontario is known for. Science North: The heritage fund has invested $650,000 for the new Woven by Water exhibit in Sudbury, which is expected to open in 2028. They’ve done it right, because they have increased the numbers of tourism from the States into that facility. So their marketing is spot-on. And that science facility is, quite frankly, world-class. Projects like this help create new reasons for families and visitors to travel in northern Ontario. They highlight the region’s natural environment and cultural heritage. In Sault Ste. Marie, we invested $900,000 through the NOHFC to expand local trail networks. This project will create new trail connections that link parks and green spaces throughout the community with the broader Algoma trail network. These trail systems attract outdoor enthusiasts. People want to get out to enjoy themselves, and investing in these trail systems is incredibly important to ensure that people from Ontario and Canada have a place that is unique. It’s truly unique because a lot of what we’re doing is investing in areas that are truly the frontier. Again, we invested $2 million in the heritage fund to support the redevelopment of the community centre in Sault Ste. Marie. So sports tourism is a big part of what we’re doing, as well. We invest in those facilities. We had one in Constance Lake, as well—a recreational facility that we built there. Those facilities will be used by generations of people. We used to talk about summer being the tourism season. Well, tourism now is 365—because in the wintertime you have hockey teams and broomball teams and ringette teams all travelling across the north, and having first-class recreational facilities for them is very important. Sports tourism contributes a factor of about three to one to the community, because a family comes in, they spend their money on the restaurants, they take in a show, they take in a local attraction. So, really and truly, the north doesn’t have to take a back seat to anybody in tourism. It is a vast and magnificent land, and the more you get up there, enjoy it and experience it, the more you’re going to love it. We did a trip with my team, not this summer, but last summer, from Sault Ste. Marie back up to Thunder Bay—the first time they had gone up north of Lake Superior. Amazing scenery. It was interesting; we were looking at a stop and looking at Lake Superior—and there were a couple of individuals from Europe, and they were remarking on the scenery. At the very same time, I’ve got a couple of nieces who were in Ireland, studying to be doctors, and they were sending a picture of the North Sea. I looked at the picture of the North Sea and Lake Superior and said, “Which is the better picture?”—and it was Lake Superior. We don’t talk about it enough. Again, we’ve got to talk about it more often. We don’t know what we have right here in northern Ontario. As I say, it’s a vast and magnificent land. And we haven’t even talked about Lake of the Woods and Kenora. We haven’t talked about the beauty of the Timiskaming area. It’s a gem. Timiskaming really is one of the world’s best kept secrets. So we’ve got those attractions from western Ontario to eastern Ontario and all through the whole area. Go up to Abitibi Canyon. If you do have a chance to jump on that winter road, take a look at the Abitibi Canyon. It’s a natural treasure. Again, we produce a lot of electricity there. You have to see that canyon and see it for what it is. It’s created by nature, which man can enjoy. It’s truly phenomenal to see it. I don’t know how much people really realize what’s happening in the Manitoulin—that’s why that swing bridge is so important. It’s an incredible place to take a look at the sandy beaches. Take a look at the extension of the Niagara Escarpment through Manitoulin Island. Travel on Highway 29 from Blind River back up to Chapleau. Take a look at the river systems there. As I say, it’s nothing but natural attractions for the visitor who really wants to enjoy a unique experience that they’ll treasure for the rest of their lifetime.

Official source

Mme Dawn Gallagher Murphy

I appreciate your comments about sport in the north. I will note the beautiful picture of the gold Olympic champions—the curling champions. They’re from Sault Ste. Marie. So, yes, we have all kinds of sport champions from the north. Chair, how much time do we have left?

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The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

Two minutes and 20 seconds.

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Mme Dawn Gallagher Murphy

I’m going to hand it over to my colleague MPP Pinsonneault.

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The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

MPP Pinsonneault.

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Mr. Steve Pinsonneault

Thank you, Minister, for being here, along with your staff, to answer questions. My question is on the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corp. Ontario is facing unprecedented trade challenges, including unjustified and unpredictable tariffs from the United States. At the same time, the global economic environment continues to shift rapidly, creating uncertainty for workers, businesses, and communities right across northern Ontario. This instability can discourage investment and make it more difficult to maintain existing jobs and create new opportunities throughout the region. The Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corp. is a critical tool your ministry has to support economic growth across the north. Can you explain how your ministry is using the NOHFC to protect the people of northern Ontario from the impacts of global economic uncertainty and unjustified tariffs, while continuing to support investment, job creation and economic development in the region?

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Hon. George Pirie

Thank you very much for the question. I appreciate the question. The NOHFC has played a vital role in—

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The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

One minute.

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

—developing northern Ontario for decades. It has helped businesses expand, supported municipalities and Indigenous communities, strengthened local infrastructure, and created jobs across the north. It remains one of the most important tools available to our government to support economic development and respond to changing economic conditions. Recognizing the challenges created by ongoing trade disruptions, our government announced a strategic refocus to the heritage fund in June 2025. That renewed focus prioritizes investments that protect northern industries, jobs, and mitigate the impacts of US tariffs. We’re looking to create tariff-proof jobs and trade disruptions that create new opportunities that will support the long-term prosperity of northern Ontario. We’re ensuring the NOHFC investments are directed towards—

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The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

Thank you, Minister. The time is up. We move to the second round of questions. MPP Vanthof, it’s your turn.

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Mr. John Vanthof

Thank you very much, Minister, for being here. I thank you and your staff for all the work you do. I will never question your allegiance to northern Ontario. We’re both from northern Ontario. We disagree often on policy, but not on our love of the north. I’d also thank you for shouting out that, in your opinion, the road from Cochrane to North Bay has never been in better shape than it is now. You’re welcome; I’m the MPP for most of that road. Having said that, why are highways so important—and you know this—to northerners? It’s because they are our main streets. We’re not getting to school; we’re not getting to the hospital; we’re not getting to the airport—people in remote northern communities aren’t getting anywhere unless they can get to a highway. That’s why they’re so important. But the fact remains that they’re much more dangerous in northern Ontario than they are in the south. And the fact still remains that if your car is registered in the district of Timiskaming and you are involved in an accident, it’s four times more likely to be fatal than anywhere else in the province. You’ve identified some of those issues. It’s getting much busier. There’s a lot more cross-country traffic. In your opening statement, you said that although the Ministry of Transportation is responsible for much of the work of how the highways get built, your ministry is quite involved in the strategy of what and where gets built. How is that decided?

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Hon. George Pirie

Can you repeat that? I didn’t hear the last part of your question, John. Sorry.

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Mr. John Vanthof

The Ministry of Transportation is responsible for the construction, but in your opening statement, you said that the strategy part—because you’re a big investor in northern highways. How is it decided? What is decided? What is the priority? I’ll give you an example. There’s a section of Highway 11 in Timiskaming that has the highest crash rating index in the province. That’s how the MTO figures out how to fix things. If something has a high crash rating index, that is where they point to put money. That section of road has had the highest crash rating index in the province for years. If you’re not using the crash rating index, what is your ministry using to decide which pieces of road get the most attention?

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Hon. George Pirie

Thank you very much for the question. I just want to back up a little bit on your question. You mentioned the roads never being in better shape. Our government, this ministry—we govern for all of northern Ontario and all of Ontario. In fact, in the last round of funding, not a bit of it was held in a PC riding. We are responsible for governing all of Ontario. The priorities are set through the ministry staff, and we’re following the same priorities that were set a few years ago which focus on the junction of where Highway 11 and Highway 17 meet, where you have both streams of highways meet. That’s in Thunder Bay up to Nipigon. That had perhaps the highest crash index at that particular time, so we’re fixing that. We’re spending an incredible amount—not an incredible amount; we’ll tell you exactly how much—on that section of highway. You’ve heard us talk about the 2+1 strategy from Sand Dam Road, in that particular area. We’re clearing the highways there as well. When we get that built, that will be unique. It will be one of a kind in North America—

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Mr. John Vanthof

I really appreciate that, Minister. And I’d like to start my second by thanking you for when—the NDP put forward a motion under my name regarding making Highway 11 and 17 a national priority. I thank you for your support, because this is a non-partisan issue, 100%, right? And I’m not trying to be partisan here, but I’ll give you another example. When MPP Mamakwa, MPP Bourgouin and I, last March—we did the tour too. We drove to Manitoba and back and we did it in one shot. In that time period, do you know what? The highway from North Bay to Cochrane was pretty good. But when you turn and you go west, it’s like you’re in another country. There’s no place for trucks to park—and granted, there’s going to be a parking lot in Hearst. Great. But there’s a big stretch of nothing for trucks, so again—

Official source

Mr. Sol Mamakwa

Or washrooms.

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Mr. John Vanthof

Yes, or washrooms. I’ll give you another. We’re building an all-season washroom just outside of Earlton. Great. I really appreciate it. But that’s just outside of New Liskeard, where there is lots of truck parking; go another hour and a half or two hours, and there’s none. So, again, thank you very much for that—whether it’s the MTO or whether it’s you, we’re very thankful. Who makes the strategic decisions? How? Having done that trip, there are places on 11 and 17—11, particularly—that were not safe to drive on. When we held those public meetings, people were really angry, and they have a right to be. Again, your ministry is part of the strategic—all I’m asking is, what is the process, Minister?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

We do it in co-operation, of course, with the ministry staff and also with the communities. As I said, we’ve got partners, FONOM and NOMA. When we talk about a parking lot in Hearst, that’s with direct consultation with the mayor of Hearst. When we talk about the parking lots in Matheson, we’re all very familiar with them—because I drive back and forth to Thunder Bay on a very regular basis. So it’s in true partnership with the municipalities and the ministry staff. For a detailed answer, I’ll pass it over to my deputy minister.

Official source

Mr. Drew Vanderduim

Thank you, Minister. Drew Vanderduim, Ministry of Northern Economic Development and Growth. Just a bit of an overview: Priorities are determined through a combination of MTO’s engineering assessments, safety considerations, traffic volumes, economic considerations, as well as stakeholder input. Traditionally, as MTO builds out their highway plan, those decisions are informed by the condition of the existing highways, bridges, culverts, safety considerations, collision risk reduction opportunities, traffic volumes, freight movement on key corridors, as well as the importance of routes for resource development—mining, forestry etc.—as well as community and municipal and Indigenous input through consultation and engagement. Highways 11, 17 and 16 have been prioritized because of those major transportation and trade and economic impacts. It’s also a reason why you get into opportunities like the innovative approaches such as the 2+1 highway pilot projects and safety flow and traffic flow.

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Mr. John Vanthof

That’s a fulsome answer. I appreciate that. Can anyone give me a number, when the 2+1 is actually going to be completed? We’ve heard about it for five years. Minister Mulroney announced it. You’ve cleared the trees. Great. But talking about 2+1 and actually having it implemented as a pilot project so we can actually see whether or not it’s going to work as well as we hope—is there a timeline? Does your ministry know when the Ministry of Transportation is hoping to have the 2+1 completed—the pilot project?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

As you know, you’d have to do the economic assessment first. You’d have to do the—not the economic assessment, but you’d have to do the environmental assessment. You’d have to go through the process of bidding—detailed design and bidding. So it’s going to be a few years, John. We’re clearing the trees. Deputy Minister, are there any specific designs that are put in place for that stretch?

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Mr. Drew Vanderduim

We can get back to you on a timeline, on a date.

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Mr. John Vanthof

I’d really appreciate that. I’m going to switch gears to something that’s, I think, near and dear to both our hearts, because you mentioned it in your opener as well: agriculture in northern Ontario. I farm in the smaller Clay Belt, the Little Clay Belt, but what we’re focusing on now is the Greater Clay Belt. Timiskaming is one of the greatest places in the province, and there is an awful lot of potential in the Greater Clay Belt. I’m just wondering, has your ministry thought—and I’ve asked the same to the Ministry of Agriculture. You mentioned tile drainage, but there’s an infrastructure part of tile drainage that goes beyond the farm: municipal drains, stuff like that. In much of that 10 million acres, there is no vehicle, no way to deliver that. So even in organized townships in my riding—we have organized townships that are close to going bankrupt because they can’t deliver the things that agriculture needs. I agree with you that there are all kinds of opportunities there. It’s great for us to all talk about it. But who is looking into providing municipal drainage, providing the roadwork that’s needed, providing all those things? There’s going to be a massive cost, because in southern Ontario and in the Little Clay Belt—this was developed over 100 years, and what is being proposed now is being developed much quicker. And we’re going to run into problems if we don’t have that infrastructure. You come from mining, and you know that you have to have a lot of planning for the infrastructure before you start the actual—who is doing that? Everyone is talking about the Greater Clay Belt, agriculture—but whose team is actually looking at who is going to provide the infrastructure that’s provided by municipalities in the rest of the province?

Official source

Hon. George Pirie

Thank you very much for the question, John. I’m glad you recognize the potential of the Great Clay Belt. As you know, the tile drainage has opened up farming for the first time. That was never possible, and that was largely supported by my ministry that’s doing this. It’s a consortium of operators that decide what farms are going to get invested and not, and they knew the land. So it’s a partnership with the ministries, both agriculture and energy.

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Mr. John Vanthof

If I could just break in to thank you, Minister—

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Hon. George Pirie

The other part about this, John, if you’ll allow me to finish: There are farms in the Iroquois Falls area and north that are in unorganized territories. They’re developing these farms, and they’re putting in their own infrastructure. They’re driving the roads. They’re clearing the land to develop 6,000 acres, as we speak.

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Mr. John Vanthof

I’d like to break in. First, I’d like to thank you and thank the ministry for their support of tile drainage. We cannot farm in northern Ontario without good, systematic tile drainage. Your ministry and your government have been a big supporter of that, and I’d like to put on the record that I thank you for that. As far as municipal drains, it’s a bit different. What you just said, that some farmers are willing to do that themselves, put in the roads themselves—basically, you’re saying the big, corporate, industrial ones. So what a lot of people are thinking is, “Northern Ontario is going to be a place where people can start,” but the people who are going to replace infrastructure that is formerly municipal or provincial and do it themselves—

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The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

One minute.

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Mr. John Vanthof

We’re not talking about helping young farmers—not at all. That’s something we also have to talk about. Who is going to be the future of agriculture? I’ve got nothing against big farms. I’m friends with Norm. I do have a problem when it’s huge corporate investment that is running our—the Ministry of Agriculture is talking about foreign investment right now, with Bill 109. I challenge whether big Bay Street investment is any less dangerous.

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Hon. George Pirie

John, I have to disagree with you. You say there’s no room for the small farmer. We’ve got a family—and others, but I’ll speak of the Rogers family in Kapuskasing. They’re bringing their family over from Saskatchewan. They’re bringing their sons and daughters because they want to farm. It is not a big—

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian)

Minister, the time is up. We’ll move to the third party. MPP Smyth, go ahead.

Official source