Tuesday, September 29, 2026

The committee met at 0901 in room 151.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs to order. We’re meeting to consider the 2026-27 estimates of the Ministry of Finance, for a total of three hours. We’re joined by staff from Hansard, broadcast and recording, and legislative research. From the ministry, we are joined by the Honourable Peter Bethlenfalvy, Minister of Finance; ministry officials and staff. As a reminder, the ministry is required to monitor proceedings for any questions or issues that the ministry undertakes to address. I trust that the deputy minister has arranged to have the hearings closely monitored with respect to questions raised so that the ministry can respond accordingly. If you wish, you may verify the questions and issues being tracked by the research officer at the end of your appearance. Are there any questions from the members of the committee? If not, I am now required to call vote 1201, which sets the review process in motion. We will begin with a statement from the minister for up to 20 minutes. Minister, at 19 minutes, I will say, “One minute,” and at 20, I will say, “Thank you.” With that, the floor is now yours, Minister.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Merci beaucoup, monsieur le Président. Good morning, colleagues. Good morning, members of the committee. It’s so good to see you again. I’m pleased to be here today to discuss the Ministry of Finance’s 2026-27 expenditure estimates. Let me begin by extending my gratitude to the Chair and members of this committee for the diligence and commitment you bring to this important work. The mechanisms of parliamentary democracy, holding the executive to account on behalf of the people, are a cornerstone of our system. The estimates process is an important part of that accountability, and I’m pleased to appear before you today to speak to how our government is managing Ontario’s finances responsibly and investing for the future. Je suis heureux d’être devant vous aujourd’hui pour vous expliquer comment notre gouvernement gère les finances de l’Ontario de manière responsable et investit dans son avenir. As this committee knows, our government reports to the public every 90 days through quarterly updates like the 2026-27 first quarter finances shared last month, the fall economic statement and the budget, because every tax dollar deserves respect and every tax dollar counts. The ministry’s 2026-27 expenditure estimates are aligned with the 2026 budget and reflect our government’s fiscal prudence, as well as our ongoing commitment to building a strong economic fiscal and investment climate for Ontario. Through the estimates, we are ensuring that every dollar the ministry spends is managed responsibly and is aligned to protect Ontario by creating a more resilient and self-reliant economy, and protecting Ontario in these uncertain times. This means maintaining careful oversight of our spending plan, managing operating expenses and finding efficient ways that allow us to both unleash our economy and continue delivering high-quality public services without compromising fiscal sustainability. In short, these estimates show that we are about making every dollar count, respecting the trust of taxpayers and ensuring that my ministry leads by example when it comes to fiscal accountability and the management of resources. As Minister of Finance, it’s my responsibility to manage Ontario’s finances in a prudent, transparent, accountable and sustainable manner, including making thoughtful decisions for today’s priorities while planning for tomorrow, to ensure Ontario’s economy remains strong, competitive and self-reliant in an increasingly uncertain economic climate. At the same time, global conditions remain uncertain. Rising tariffs, trade tensions and conflict continue to weigh on economies worldwide, and Ontario is not immune. The uncertainty surrounding global trade policy, particularly in the United States, presents real challenges for our workers, our businesses and our economy. Yet amid these pressures, Ontario continues to demonstrate resilience. We are fighting for workers, for families, for businesses and communities by ensuring that they have the support needed to weather these challenges. Our government’s plan is clear, and our plan is working. Our plan will continue to prioritize strategic investments and initiatives that help our workers, our businesses and our communities build long-term resilience and prosperity. Our plan will continue to protect Ontario by fostering the most competitive economy in the G7 and promoting investment, job creation and growth. This is how Ontario remains strong and how we combat any challenge in front of us. Chair, our province’s track record of prudent financial management has put our finances in a strong position. Following the 2026 budget, all four credit rating agencies affirmed Ontario’s AA credit rating with a stable outlook. Particularly in a turbulent world, that is meaningful. That means less interest paid on every dollar borrowed, enabling more investments in our province’s growth that help protect our workers, protect our businesses, our families and our communities. This reflects Ontario’s commitment to maintain its targets for debt sustainability measures despite the economic and geopolitical uncertainties the province is facing. More so, Ontario’s strong credit ratings, fiscal profile and approach to markets have all contributed to unprecedented global investor demand for the province’s bonds. This confidence in Ontario’s finances reflects our government’s ongoing commitment to fiscal discipline and economic growth. This is something that we do not take for granted and will work diligently to maintain. Chair, simply put, we remain resilient. Key measures of government financial health remain some of the strongest seen in over a decade. As reported in our government’s 2026-27 first quarter finances, our fiscal outlook remains largely unchanged. As of the 2026-27 first quarter finances, revenue is expected to improve to $232 billion—$100 million higher than expected in the 2026 budget—while Ontario’s net debt-to-GDP ratio is projected to remain unchanged at 37.7%, which is amongst the lowest in 20 years. Program expense is projected to be $227.1 billion, increasing by $100 million from the 2026 budget, while the deficit projection remains at $13.8 billion. Ontario’s real GDP decreased by 0.1% in the first quarter of 2026, following a 0.3% decline in the previous quarter. Chair, we know that these global challenges can weigh on short-term economic output, causing growth to be uncertain between quarters. The good news is that the economic indicators suggest that growth has rebounded in the second quarter of the year, and we’re still on track for the year as a whole, according to the private sector. And I can add that Ontario’s labour market has shown signs of resiliency in the second quarter of the year, with employment up by 62,000 jobs. The unemployment rate continues to trend lower, at 6.9% in August. In summary, these metrics show how our prudent fiscal management continues to deliver results for the people of Ontario—results that include investments to grow Ontario’s economy and protect critical public services such as health care, education and infrastructure. Chair, we are committed to keeping Ontario’s debt-to-GDP rate on a sustainable trajectory and maintaining the lowest interest on debt-to-revenue ratio in decades. So while fiscal stewardship is at the heart of what we do, our work extends far beyond the balance sheet. We are taking decisive action to protect Ontario’s workers and businesses from external shocks, especially from the impact of tariffs and global economic headwinds. As an immediate response to tariffs, we announced $30 billion in relief and support to help businesses and keep workers on the job, as well as measures to build long-term resiliency and prosperity. Some of these measures include launching our tax action plan, new infrastructure, financing opportunities for First Nations, and investments in critical minerals and critical technology platforms to help businesses navigate challenges from trade disruptions and transform Ontario’s economy. We launched the first phase of the Protect Ontario Account to provide support to Ontario-based businesses that have been affected by higher tariff rates. Through it, up to $1 billion in liquidity support will be provided and has been provided to protect workers and operations by helping manage working capital challenges, such as meeting payroll, lease payments and utility payments. We also recently announced expanding eligibility for the Protect Ontario Financing Program and the Ontario Together Trade Fund to protect workers and businesses targeted by the latest US trade actions. The Ontario Together Trade Fund will ensure we can continue to deliver critical support for small and medium-sized businesses by enabling them to pivot production, build new sales partnerships and expand trade. Chair, when you come right down to it, our plan is to protect Ontario. It’s about creating the conditions for business success, which is why we also invested $20 million in the protect Ontario workers employment response centres, also known as POWER centres, to provide access to training and upskilling to workers affected by or at risk of layoffs—and a $40 million Trade-Impacted Communities Program supporting municipalities, economic development organizations and industry groups responding to trade disruptions. WSIB premium rates were further reduced to the lowest level in 50 years, which is estimated to bring an additional annual savings of approximately $60 million for Ontario employers this year. We’re protecting Ontario, and that means protecting Ontario workers, jobs and businesses. We’re continuing to provide much-needed support and relief during uncertainty while creating the best economic conditions to encourage and attract new investment. These investments reflect a coordinated effort to protect Ontario’s workers and businesses and increase the competitiveness of our economy. Speaking of increasing the competitiveness of our economy, our government is also delivering on the province’s tax action plan to make Ontario the best place to invest in the G7, and lower costs: —by cutting small business corporate income tax from 3.2% to 2.2%, which took effect this year to ensure small businesses continue to stay resilient; —by cutting the rate by more than 31% for over 375,000 Ontario small businesses, to benefit from an additional $1.1 billion in corporate income tax relief over the next three years; —as well as by allowing businesses to accelerate the income tax deduction for the cost of depreciable assets in parallel with changes announced by the federal government. As mentioned in the 2026 budget, these changes lower the cost for capital investments in a broad range of assets. These tax measures are contributing to nearly $10 billion in estimated cost savings and support for Ontario businesses in 2026, of which $4.8 billion goes to small businesses. We’re also reducing red tape for these businesses, saving over $1.3 billion in annualized compliance costs and delivering 1.8 million annual hours of savings. And Chair, we did not stop there. We also continue to lower costs for families and all those who call Ontario home through several major relief programs. To continue to make life more affordable for Ontario’s families, we have provided $12 billion in support for families and individuals this year alone. As an example, we are providing further temporary relief for homebuyers by removing the full 13% of the harmonized sales tax for all eligible buyers of new homes valued up to $1 million, for a maximum rebate of $130,000 in relief to eligible buyers. The amount would be maintained for new homes valued up to $1.5 million. This is providing $2.2 billion in total tax relief for homebuyers in Ontario. Additionally, we permanently cut the gas tax and fuel tax by 10 cents per litre, and these cuts have saved households $2.3 billion to date. We’ve also saved drivers $94 million annually by removing tolls on the Highway 407 East, and we’ve removed tolls on Highways 412 and 418. As reported in the 2026 budget, our government is saving commuters $1,600 a year by extending the One Fare program for an additional two years, to continue keeping costs down for daily transit users in the greater Toronto and Hamilton area and southern Ontario. Ontario is growing, and our government is investing to make Ontario the best destination to live, work and play, now and for decades to come. This government is investing $236 billion over 10 years to build, repair and expand critical infrastructure, making it the largest provincial capital plan in Canadian history, on projects like transit expansion, education infrastructure, high-quality critical services, recreational facilities, affordable housing, and municipal and community initiatives, just to mention a few. It is safe to say we’re protecting the people of Ontario day in, day out.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

And to continue meeting the needs of growing communities, we’re supporting the repair, upgrade or construction of new sport and recreation facilities across the province by investing an additional $300 million over six years through the Community Sport and Recreation Infrastructure Fund, contributing to a total of $500 million. Making these strategic and thoughtful infrastructure investments contributes to our province’s growth and puts many, many people to work. Protecting Ontario also means protecting the services people rely on. That’s why we invested over $1.1 billion in additional hospital funding for 2026-27. It is why we are investing $3.4 billion in our primary care action plan, to connect everyone in the province to a family doctor or primary care team by 2029. And to help reduce out-of-pocket expenses for teachers, we’ve established the Classroom Supplies Fund, with $66 million per school year for elementary school homeroom teachers to order up to $750 in class supplies annually. It is our plan that is focused on student success and a back-to-basics approach that strengthens student achievement and prepares them for rewarding careers. All these supports help create safe and burden-free foundations that help the people of Ontario to continue to thrive. As I highlighted when we released the public accounts, global economic conditions are becoming increasingly challenging, while the relationship with our closest ally and friend, the United States, has changed, with tariffs taking direct aim at our economy—tariffs that disproportionately impact Ontario’s workers and businesses. Thankfully, we’re able to respond to these changing needs because of our responsible fiscal management. That’s why we’ve provided $30 billion in relief to support businesses impacted by tariffs, and we’re actively monitoring the situation to ensure that workers and businesses who need support receive it. But we need to continue our prudent and disciplined approach to managing Ontario’s finances. Families and businesses across Ontario are tightening their belts in the face of economic uncertainty, and governments should, too. Ontario is doing its part, as demonstrated in yesterday’s public accounts. But Ontario cannot act alone. We need the federal government to work with us to continue investing their fair share in the public services Canadians are counting on and to direct 100% of the tariff revenues to tariff-impacted workers and businesses. Nous avons besoin que le gouvernement fédéral travaille avec nous, qu’il continue à investir sa juste part dans les services publics sur lesquels comptent les Canadiens et les Canadiennes, et qu’il consacre 100 % des revenus provenant des droits de douane aux travailleurs et aux entreprises qui subissent les conséquences de cette mesure. The federal government receives 100% of the revenue from counter-tariffs and roughly two thirds of the personal income tax and 60% of the corporate income tax. This puts them in the position, more so than provinces, to provide additional targeted support to protect our workers and our jobs. Additionally, several fiscal transfers for critical services, including mental health, home care, labour and housing are coming to an end or being reduced. These are programs that the government of Canada committed to. On top of that, the Canada Health Transfer from the federal government is set to fall by 40%—from 5% to 3%—precisely at the time when our health sector warrants the support. In the meantime, our government will continue taking a focused, disciplined and responsible approach to our spending so that we can protect our finances, and protect our workers and families across Ontario. For that, our government’s plan to protect Ontario and its people is unwavering today and for generations to come. Our plan is responsible. Our plan is forward-thinking. Our plan deals with the exigencies of today, but also builds for future generations—unprecedented infrastructure investment leading the way across Canada; removing barriers to interprovincial trade; faster permitting; cutting regulations; building for the people of today and for tomorrow for generations, all the while putting Ontario on the—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

—strongest fiscal track that we’ve seen in decades—the lowest debt-to-GDP in over a decade; the lowest interest-expense-to-revenue that we’ve seen in four decades. The management of our fiscal position has yielded two—not one, but two credit rating upgrades, precisely at the time that most sovereign nations and sub-sovereigns are feeling the pinch on their fiscal plans. Our deficits are around 1% of GDP—amongst the lowest in the developed world, along with the federal government—much lower than the United States, the UK, Germany, France, and even Japan. This is what fiscal, prudent, responsible management of your money, taxpayer money, means. With that, I thank you, Chair, I thank the members of the committee, and I look forward to your questions.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much for the presentation. We now will begin the question-and-answer segment for the remainder of the allotted time, in rotations of 15 minutes for the official opposition members, 15 minutes for the third party member, five minutes for the independent member, and 15 minutes for the government members. As always, please make your comments through the Chair. Ministry officials and staff, please state your name and title when you are called on to speak so that the proceedings can be accurately recorded in Hansard. With that, we will start the questions with the official opposition. MPP Bell.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Thank you, Minister Bethlenfalvy, for being here today. Thank you to the staff for all the hard work you do for the Ministry of Finance. I want to start off by reading out a quote: “The most recent report from the Parliamentary Budget Officer reaffirms that our provincial debt is out of control.... “We will fight to reduce the debt so that we leave a legacy of financial sustainability to this and future generations.” Who said that?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Could you read that again?

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Sure. “The most recent report from the Parliamentary Budget Officer reaffirms that our provincial debt is out of control.... “We will fight to reduce the debt so that we leave a legacy of financial sustainability to this and future generations.”

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Parliamentary Budget Officer being the federal one?

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

It was you. It was you, in 2018.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Wise quote.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

I thought you would like it.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

I do, I do.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

It was you, and it was said in 2018 in response to questions about our debt. What was Ontario’s debt when you first came into office, Minister?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Thank you for that question, and thank you, MPP Bell, for your thoughtful questions over the last few days. I think what’s important is, the debt relative to what? What do the markets look at? I worked at a credit rating agency for a number of years. I worked in the bond markets for a number of years. They look at the debt relative to your economy. If you look at the economy in 2018, which we inherited—$825 billion; it’s now almost $1.3 trillion. Our debt-to-GDP that we inherited in 2017-18 was 39.2%; in public accounts, we printed at 35.7%, and a few days ago, we printed 36.5%.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

I’ll just give it out in basic numbers—because we do know what our debt is. We knew what our debt was back then, and we know what our debt is now. Our debt in 2017-18 was $323 billion. At that time, you were quoted as saying, “Our provincial debt is out of control.... “We will fight to reduce the debt so that we leave a legacy of financial sustainability to this and future generations.” It’s a very good goal. What is our debt today?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

So you would agree, MPP Bell—because you understand numbers—that our debt has actually decreased relative to the economy.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

What is our debt today?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Our debt today is about $450 billion, against an economy of almost $1.3 trillion. Everyone knows that’s how the markets look at your fiscal health. And they decide whether to lend you that money. Guess what markets are doing? They’re lending us money at the lowest borrowing rates we’ve seen in decades. We have the lowest borrowing costs in Canada for 30 years—the first time in decades borrowing 30-year money—and a third of it we’ve been issuing 30-year bonds prudently, at very low interest rates. It’s prudent fiscal management.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

When this government came into power, you made a commitment to us that you would reduce the debt—

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

And we have.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

—and eight years later, the debt has gone up by $150 billion.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

You can’t look at it in absolute terms, MPP Bell. You know that.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Your name has become “the half-a-trillion-dollar man.”

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

No. No one looks at it that way.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Well, they are the facts—

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Those are the facts—

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Okay. I’m going to keep going. Every year, the government says they have a plan to reduce the debt. Every year, the debt grows. Your plan to reduce the debt is not working. What is the government’s plan to reduce the debt? What are you going to do differently moving forward?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

MPP Bell, credit rating agencies upgraded our debt—S&P and DBRS. Don’t you think they look at the same debt metrics? They see our fiscal profile improving. Look at markets. They’re lending us money at the cheapest levels in over a couple decades. This matters. In fact, our interest expense went down by almost $700 million last year, and our interest revenue, which every credit rating agency market participant looks at, is some of the lowest in the history of the province. It’s certainly as low as we saw in the 1980s. That was the last time. So I think the markets are telling us that our borrowing is prudent, that it has been going down. But let me tell you why we’re borrowing. The vast majority of our borrowing is for infrastructure.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Minister Bethlenfalvy, I’m going to keep asking questions. We’re going to be going back and forth all day. So you’re going to have a lot of opportunities to get your talking points out.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

It’s not a talking point. It’s the facts.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Okay. I think you can agree that reducing the debt is important. It continues to be important. But when I look at the estimates, what I see is not a credible plan to reduce the debt. I want to talk a little bit about the upcoming deficits that we’re seeing. The deficit for this year is $13.8 billion. The deficit for next year is $6.1 billion. And then magically, suddenly, we’re going to make a surplus in 2028-29 of $0.6 billion. I don’t think your Conservative government has a credible plan to balance the budget and reduce the debt, but I’m going to give it to you—what changes between now and 2028-29 are going to take place to allow the government to move from a $13.8-billion deficit to a surplus? What is going to be done differently?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Our goal is, of course, as you know, to achieve a balance. But we live in the world we are in, and I think you would admit that the world is a challenging place right now. The cost of oil, which is an input for a lot of Ontario businesses; the price at the pumps for individuals; the tariffs from the US are impacting Ontario’s economy. In that context, we’re not willing to compromise on the investments into our health care, our education, our post-secondary or our justice system. We’re going to continue to make those record investments. But at the same time, what’s so important is that we continue to build infrastructure. I think you could agree that we inherited a massive infrastructure deficit—not because of you, but the other government, the other party, the Liberals. We need to keep building hospitals. We need to keep building schools. We keep needing to build transit. We need to keep building energy so that we can continue to be a sovereign and proud province. In that context, the deficit, while it’s much higher than I would want—I’d like to see lower deficits; it’s the world we live in—is still one of the lowest in the country and in the developed world, at 1% of GDP or thereabouts.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

The goal is to get from a $13.8-billion deficit to a $0.6-billion surplus. How much of this change is going to come from spending restraint?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Well, as you know, we want to make sure that we continue investments in those areas that I just mentioned. I’ve said frequently that we want to make sure that the money gets to the front-line health care workers, social workers, teachers, for the benefit of the patients, students and most vulnerable. There’s a lot of administration that goes out with that money, so we constantly look at ways that we can invest that money more efficiently, by looking at the administrative side. As you’ve seen in our budget, I’m sure, we have highlighted a number of management actions to look at finding efficiencies. I’m sure you saw on page 141 that we have the leanest and most effective and efficient—thank you very much—public service in Canada, working extremely hard on behalf of all taxpayers in this province. Our goal is to continue to drive good outcomes, whether it’s for students in the classroom, patients—with lower wait times in emergency rooms, surgeries, attachments to family doctors—and of course, our most vulnerable.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Minister, I did ask you a pretty—I’m just trying to think of this in the most practical terms. We have a huge amount of debt. The government, in the estimates, has made a commitment to reduce the deficit and to get to a surplus in order to look at our debt and address it. I’m not hearing from you any specifics around what kind of spending restraint is going to happen. I think it’s safe to say that we are not playing Monopoly here. You cannot raid the bank when I’m going to get a snack from the kitchen. This is a government. And something has to give. I want to talk about health care. It’s safe to say, we can both agree, that the two biggest expenses within the government are health care and education—it’s about 60% of what the government spends. So when we’re looking at spending restraint, it’s safe to say that if there’s going to be a reduction in how much we’re spending, some of it is likely going to have to come from either health care or education. I want to look at health care first. Overall, health care spending is going up; however, it is not going up at the rate that is needed to maintain current health sector service levels, when you factor in population growth, aging, and health care inflation. Health care funding is going up, but what people are seeing when they go to the emergency room or they’re looking for a family doctor—they’re seeing a decline in services. That’s what the projection is, according to the Financial Accountability Officer. So you’ve got a challenge. Health care funding needs to go up in order to maintain service levels. But then you’re here today saying you’ve got a plan to get to a surplus by 2028-29. So my question to you: Is this government going to cut health care funding and reduce health care service standards in order to reach a surplus by 2028-29?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

No. And that is a complete sentence. MPP Bell, you know the numbers. The health sector funding went up 7.2% in 2025-26. We’ve made record investments. When we inherited the health care budget, it was $54 billion in 2017-18; it’s now over $100 million. So major investments have been made. You quoted the FAO, and the FAO’s—their metric is 4%, is what the rate should be. So we’re overinvesting in health care, as we should. We had a huge population growth. We’re going to continue to support our front-line health care workers, look at scope of practice, look at a whole range of measures, in partnership with the health system. We’re investing in primary care, which is going to help with preventive care—

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

I’m going to interrupt you here. So what I heard from you is a clear answer that this government is going to maintain existing health care standards.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

What I said is, we’re not going to cut. You asked me, “Are you going to cut?” And I said no.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Good. I’m pleased. That’s why I’m asking the question. I do want clarity. Can this government commit to maintaining existing health care standards?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Well, you had the Minister of Health here yesterday to ask her those questions. We are going to continue to invest in health care in multiple areas. Let me be very clear about those areas. Acute care: We’ve got a massive investment in building new beds, which is acute-care beds. We’ve got a huge $3.4 billion in primary care. And we’ve got a multi-billion dollar investment in home care. These are all investments that we are—

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

I’m going to interrupt you here because I only have three minutes left. So, to be clear, you’re not cutting. In order to maintain existing health care service levels, the government would need to increase the amount of money they’re giving to health care, moving forward, to 4.4%, and right now you’re on a track of 3.2%. So can this government increase funding to health care to ensure that health care service standards are maintained?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

To be clear, I think if you’re suggesting a cut from $100 billion to something less than $100 billion, that is not going to happen. What people want from us is results. They want to see emergency wait times improve. They want to see surgical wait times improve. They want to see not only attachment to a family doctor, but they want access to a family doctor. All those metrics we monitor very closely. In many areas, we’re seeing improvements in those areas, but that doesn’t mean the job is done. So we’ll continue to make investments in health care to transform our health care system, with more primary care, acute care for those who need it, and home care, as we transform the health care system.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Just to be clear, when the Financial Accountability Officer looks at health care standards, they’re not pulling standards out of a hat. They’re looking at how many doctors there are per thousand people, how many nurses there are per thousand people, how many hospital beds there are per thousand people, how many long-term-care beds, how many personal support workers. They have some pretty standard metrics that are used to compare provinces and to look at our health care system nationally. So they’re pretty clear standards. My question to you is, if you’re not going to cut health care funding significantly, then how are you going to get to a surplus by 2028-29?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

I can’t imagine anyone would cut the $100-billion investment, which is a record investment. So, no, we’re going to continue to invest in health care to achieve the outcomes. One area that I didn’t mention is agencies. We’re looking at agencies. We’ve announced we’re taking a look at agencies. We’re looking at various measures that can add efficiency and effectiveness to help us with the expenditure management.

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One minute.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

The second thing I would say is, the things that we’re doing—unprecedented investment in infrastructure. That’s boosting our economy. Interprovincial trade, getting rid of barriers, faster permitting so we can get shovels in the ground, and cutting red tape so that businesses can make the capital investments and have certainty in this province—that’s how you get to a more robust fiscal profile.

Official source

Ms. Jessica Bell

Minister, it is challenging, given the very large amount of the government’s budget—the government has a huge budget—that we only have about 45 minutes on our side to ask some really genuine, important questions about what you’re spending your money on and whether these figures add up and make sense. And I’m not hearing credible responses to very basic questions that I’m asking you.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Well, that’s in the ear of the beholder. We’re out every 90 days, MPP Bell, telling the public how we’re spending the money—

Official source

The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Thank you very much. That ends the time for that question. We’ll go to MPP Bowman.

Official source

Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Thank you to the minister for being here today. Minister, you talk about being transparent, and I certainly like that idea. But I notice that when you talk about the rating agencies, you always fail to mention that there was a downgrade in 2025, from a “positive” outlook to “stable,” by Moody’s. Could you tell me why you don’t talk about that?

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Well, remember that it was “stable” under our government. They put us up at “positive.” And then, something called a trade war evolved. We can’t control external shocks to the system—the pandemic. I think having an AA rating from Moody’s is a testament to our government’s fiscal management—and it’s “stable.” As you know, many provinces are not on “stable”; they’re on “negative.” Through the pandemic, through the tariff challenge, we’ve been able to maintain our ratings.

Official source

Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Sorry, Minister—

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

I don’t fail to mention it. I point out that we’ve seen the credit rating upgrades, which you fail to mention.

Official source

Ms. Stephanie Bowman

I’d like to reclaim my time. I certainly have heard you talk about the upgrades. What I’m asking is why you fail to talk about the downgrades. When you talk about being transparent, you are not actually talking about the downgrade that the province got in their outlook, and I think that’s an important thing for taxpayers to understand—that there has been a change in the outlook, based on a number of factors in the province. You mentioned tariffs, of course. But the importance, I think, of being transparent, is that you give a full set of facts. So I’m really just asking why you fail to mention that downgrade when you talk about rating agencies.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

It’s a change in outlook, but it’s not a downgrade.

Official source

Ms. Stephanie Bowman

A change in outlook, sure.

Official source

Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

And number two: Credit rating upgrades, categories—S&P and DBRS—which has opened up new investors, which has driven our borrowing costs down. That never happened under your government, when you were in power in the previous decade.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Minister, I wasn’t here at that time. I would just encourage you to make sure that you’re giving out a full set of facts when you talk about the rating agencies.

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

I think I have.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

I will continue to remind people that the outlook was downgraded in 2025. That’s an important thing for them to understand. I also want to talk about transparency as it relates to the debt reduction strategy. I will quote the Auditor General here, who says that the debt burden reduction strategy has not been fully implemented “due to the province not clearly demonstrating how debt will be managed.” Again, we’ve heard you talk about the debt. We know that the debt is on the rise and that it will continue to rise in the next number of years, given the challenges that the province is facing. I wonder if you could actually lay out here, for us and for the Auditor General, what your debt reduction strategy is.

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

As you know, the debt has actually gone down. It has gone down from when—you weren’t there, but you are part of the party that was in power at the time. The debt-to-GDP was approaching 40%; in the public accounts, it was 36.5%. That tells you debt has gone down because, as I mentioned, at the time we took over, the economy was $825 billion; it’s now approaching $1.3 trillion. Those are facts. You can’t change those facts. Our fiscal profile has improved. You also can’t deny that we’re in a different world right now. Our most trusted ally and trading partner, the US, is engaged in what I think is the wrong policy. I’m a free trader, not a protectionist. This is the world we’re in. We’re not going to relent on investing in our social infrastructure, that being health care, education, justice, and post-secondary education, in that environment.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Again, the debt burden is climbing—

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

As I just said, it’s going down. So we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

The debt burden is climbing—

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

You know the numbers. You understand this.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

—according to the FAO’s outlook. It will continue to climb in the coming years, and I think that the taxpayers of Ontario deserve to hear that from you directly. I think that would be—

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

And with respect, they hear every 90 days from me.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Excuse me—

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

The previous Liberal government did not go out every 90 days.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Chair?

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

One at a time.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

I would just like to highlight that the debt burden is rising in the next number of years, according to the FAO and the expenditures that will be coming. I think it’s important for you to be talking about that to taxpayers. So I will continue to ask you to be fully transparent about what is happening with the debt and, again, to accept the Auditor General’s conclusion that the government does not have a debt burden reduction strategy. I think that is very clear as we continue to see the debt rise, going up to over half a trillion dollars. It’s a big number to say. So I think that we need to hear that from you. We need to hear about that. Again, the question is, how will you get to the balanced books as you are forecasting in the next two years, given all of the uncertainty around tariffs and trade that you are talking about? I think that is, again, something that is a bit of a fiction and a fantasy, kind of like the tunnel under the 401. Again, I would ask if you would please comply with the Auditor General—and your own law, actually—for the government to have a debt burden reduction strategy and talk about how you will reduce the debt.

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

A couple of things: First off, I should mention, congratulations on putting your name on the ballot for the leadership. I know that it’s not easy to put your name on a ballot—all of us—and equally to run in the leadership. So I very much respect that. Not your fault, but your problem—the Auditor General did not give a clean opinion to the previous Liberal government. We’ve achieved—

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Excuse me, Chair. Again—

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

We’ve achieved—

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

The question I’m asking is, why the government has not provided a debt burden reduction strategy—looking forward, Minister, not backwards. Thank you for your kind remarks.

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Chair, she—

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

If I can call both parties to order—ask questions, answer questions, but both have to be given time to do that. Carry on.

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

It is important to look in the rear-view mirror. We just received our ninth clean opinion from the Auditor General. Number two: I’m out every 90 days, and when I’m facing the media every 90 days—and more than that in between—they’re asking me all these tough questions and I’m answering them. And thirdly, how are we going to continue our fiscal path? It’s because we have a plan. We have a prosperity plan that involves a record amount of infrastructure investment; getting rid of red tape; faster permitting; building energy infrastructure, like in my riding, in Pickering, with the refurbishment of the nuclear reactors, which the previous Liberal government didn’t do. We welcome support from every party on this, because this is not about partisan politics; this is about building Ontario.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

I would like to just note that the minister has not answered the question about the debt burden reduction strategy. In fact, the debt has gone up. The debt ratio will go up to close to 40%, according to the forecast. So debt-to-GDP is going to rise, and I think, again, it is important for the Minister of Finance to be transparent about that with the taxpayers of Ontario—I guess not today; maybe we’ll look for that in the future. I’d like to move to another topic. Minister, the Protect Ontario Financing Program is a bit of a mystery. You talk about a billion dollars being made available to organizations so far, but we can’t see, actually, how much has been made available, how much has been repaid. Could you talk a little bit about that in real numbers?

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Sure. I welcome that question. We came out with our $30-billion plan to protect businesses and workers, and we continue to execute against that plan. We moved early to rebate WSIB premiums for employers, some $2 billion; provide tax deferrals, some $9 billion; and give access to the Protect Ontario Account, a billion dollars, of which money has gone out the door to help with liquidity, and the Ontario Together Trade Fund, where money has gone out the door to reposition and pivot to new markets. So our government continues to make those investments.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

I just want to clarify: You’re saying $1 billion has gone out the door?

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

No—I said a billion dollars available, and companies have applied for and received approval for that funding.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

My question is, how much money has gone out the door?

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Well, you’d have to ask the Minister of Economic Development, who’s responsible for that. He was here yesterday, so I’m sure you asked him that question.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

I’m sure you must know that number. Could you—

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

I don’t have that number at my fingertips, but—

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Maybe one of your staff has that number.

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

Between supporting, for example, Algoma with $100 million—not only that, but we’ve—

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

So $100 million?

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Hon. Peter Bethlenfalvy

No, no, more than that. At the same time, we’ve expanded the definition to incorporate the companies in section 338. This is a very fluid situation. We continue to receive applications. We continue to approve funding. And we continue to provide a range of supports for businesses. The good news is that these companies are pivoting. The federal government is a key part of this. The counter-tariff revenues are significant. They get 100% of the tariffs, so it’s primary that the federal government also supports the tariff-impacted sectors. And we have a good dialogue with the federal government.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Again, I don’t think we have a clear answer yet of how much money has actually gone out the door to support companies. We’ve heard that a billion dollars has been made available. My question is, how much money has gone out the door? My sense of the tariff relief—you talk a big number, but actually, very little has gone out, and it’s mostly temporary relief. They have to repay the money. So I would like to just—

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Mr. Dave Smith

Point of order.

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

Point of order.

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Mr. Dave Smith

Thanks, Chair. I’d love to have the member point to the section in the estimates binder for finance specifically about this—because the line of questioning that she’s asking about is a program that is run by a different ministry. That is not in scope for the Ministry of Finance. He is not the person who is responsible for the Ministry of Economic Development, Job Creation and Trade, who was here yesterday. That line of questioning would have been more appropriate for that ministry. This is not part of the Ministry of Finance—it’s not part of the estimates submission for it. I would ask that the member stick to our standing order—

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The Chair (Hon. Ernie Hardeman)

That is a point of order. And I’m sure the member will get back to the estimates that we are hearing today, in their line of questioning.

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Ms. Stephanie Bowman

Yes. Thank you, Chair, and thank you, MPP Smith. I think the important point to remember is that the minister was here, gave his opening remarks, and talked about the Protect Ontario Account, so I think it’s fair game to ask him questions about it. Again, I would like to understand—

Official source