Monday, September 28, 2026

The committee met at 0900 in committee room 2.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Good morning, everyone. The Standing Committee on Social Policy will now come to order. We are meeting to consider the 2026-27 estimates of the Ministry of Health for a total of three hours. As this is the first ministry before the committee, I would like to provide some comments on the estimates process. In the past, members have been allowed to ask a wide range of questions pertaining to estimates before the committee; however, it must be noted that the onus is on the member asking the question to make sure that the question is relevant to the estimates under consideration. The ministry is required to monitor the proceedings for any questions or issues that the ministry undertakes to address. If you wish, you may, at the end of your appearance, verify the questions and issues being tracked with the research officer. Are there any questions before we start? I am now required to call vote 1401, which sets the review process in motion. We will now begin with a statement of not more than 20 minutes from the Minister of Health. Minister, the floor is yours.

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

I feel honoured that I am first. Good morning, everyone, and thank you to Chair Riddell and members of the committee for the opportunity to discuss how our government, under the leadership of Premier Ford, continues to make record investments to protect and strengthen health care across Ontario, delivering a patient-focused, integrated and sustainable publicly funded health care system that’s connecting Ontarians to high-quality, convenient care where and when they need it. I would like to begin by discussing a looming threat to our health care system. Over the past 10 years, the federal government has provided provinces and territories with approximately $11 billion in funding aimed at supporting improved access to mental health and addictions services, as well as home and community care. This funding has played an important role in supporting our expansions to mental health and addictions services, including mobile crisis response programs; homelessness and addiction recovery treatment, or HART, hubs; and hiring additional home care staff, among many things. These are services that thousands, if not millions, of Ontarians rely on each and every day to ensure that they and their loved ones are cared for and can access the care they need, when and where they need it. However, these services are now at risk. With the 10-year agreements expiring this March, the federal government is on track to cut half a billion dollars in annual health care funding to the province of Ontario. The impacts of this looming funding cut would be felt province-wide, impacting patients with the most complex needs, who are low-income or from rural communities. Front-line services and front-line providers will also be significantly impacted by these federal cuts. This puts countless patients and health care workers across Ontario, including in your own communities, at risk of losing access to vital health care services they rely on, as well as their jobs. I trust all members of this committee will agree that we need the federal government to come to the table and renew these agreements, with appropriate cost-of-living increases. However, in the meantime, our government will continue to step up and make record investments in our health care system and see results in key priority areas. One of our key priorities is ensuring all Ontarians can access primary care. Ontario continues to lead Canada, with nearly 90% of people connected to a primary care provider. Through our $3.4-billion primary care action plan, we are well on track to connect everyone in the province to a primary care provider by 2029. Since launching this plan, we continue to exceed our patient targets, and in fact have attached over 476,000 people to ongoing and consistent primary care. In March, we announced that 124 additional applicants are receiving funding for a new or expanded primary care team, which is expected to connect another half a million people to primary care across Ontario. We will soon launch our next call for proposals, which will create or expand nearly 80 primary care teams to provide 600,000 more people with access to care. We are seeing the results of our investments across Ontario, such as in the north, where the Port Arthur Health Centre in Thunder Bay created a new family health team, which has attached nearly 10,000 patients to primary care, or in Sault Ste. Marie where Maamwesying North Shore Community Health Services has attached over 1,000 patients to primary care. In eastern Ontario, the Montfort Academic Family Health Team has attached over 1,500 patients to primary care, while in the southwest, the Kincardine Family Health Team has attached more than 3,200 patients to primary care. In Toronto, the Women’s College Hospital Academic Family Health Team has attached nearly 9,000 patients. These are just a few of the many success stories happening in every corner of our province. Working with our front-line providers, we have also cleared over 440,000 people from the Health Care Connect wait-list. This reflects the dedication of the clinicians and their teams in our communities and the health care workers who are going above and beyond every single day. I have had the opportunity to visit a number of these clinics across Ontario. I hear from Ontarians about how our investments in primary care are helping them and their families—comments from people referred from the Health Care Connect list like, “I’m relieved knowing I am going to be referred to a new doctor and can get the care I need,” or, “We are beyond grateful for your efforts in ensuring that our family now has a family doctor. This has brought us great relief and peace of mind, knowing that we are in good hands.” And we had an individual who told us about her incredible experience. After meeting her new physician, she received tests, was diagnosed with a brain tumour and has since had surgery. She said, “You saved my life.” From a primary care leader: “The incredible stories we hear from people as they get connected within their local neighbourhood are inspiring. This is the life-changing work made possible by our province, our partners and the people of primary care.” We are also providing primary care teams with funding specifically to help recruit and retain health care workers. Earlier this year we announced further investments to expand the primary care workforce, which includes adding up to 150 physician assistant education seats and creating 170 nurse practitioner education seats, while also supporting the recruitment and retention of nurses in primary care through a new innovative program that will help over 1,400 registered nurses upskill and gain specialized clinical knowledge in primary care nursing. Through the Practice Ready Ontario program, we are streamlining requirements for internationally educated physicians so that they can start family practice in Ontario faster. Since 2025, this has enabled over 100 additional family doctors to provide care to nearly 60 rural and northern communities. And this year we are increasing the number of participating physicians to 150 and expanded eligibility to additional communities, so more patients will have access to a family doctor in communities with the greatest needs. The province is also providing all existing primary care teams with additional funding to help them meet increased operational costs, and investing in Ontario health teams to ensure these teams and their primary care networks can support primary care teams and clinicians in attaching everyone within their communities to primary care. Another important step in our primary care action plan is advancing a new province-wide primary care medical record system that will integrate patient records, reduce paperwork and administrative burdens for doctors and primary care providers, and improve the quality and coordination of patient care. Advancing a primary care medical record system builds on existing efforts to provide better digital health services. More than 350,000 front-line providers are now able to access integrated patient records, including hospital reports, lab test results, diagnostic imaging and reports, and drug information, which is already supporting more integrated care and better decision-making. Ontario also has access to a growing number of resources through Health811. We are seeing around 50,000 Health811 interactions each month: calls, chats and online symptom assessments that help Ontarians access timely health information, guidance and services. Other provincially funded digital services are enabling providers to send electronic referrals, and many Ontarians have access to convenient virtual care options. For example, more than 40,000 patients—surgical patients, patients with chronic disease and frail elderly—are accessing remote care management programs, which enables better management of conditions from home, reduced emergency department visits and hospital admissions, and improved outcomes. We are also supporting the Health Innovation Pathway, a streamlined system for reviewing and accelerating the adoption of new health technologies such as medical devices and procedures, digital health tools, medical imaging and screening, lab and genetic testing, and models of health care delivery to prioritize made-in-Ontario innovations, support jobs and ensure more patients can benefit from world-class care closer to home. Recent examples of where the Health Innovation Pathway is helping deliver better patient outcomes include introducing AI-powered screening technology to detect and treat osteoporosis sooner; mobile cameras and AI technology to screen and identify diabetic retinopathy sooner, avoiding potential blindness; and putting advanced digital diagnostic tools in the hands of health care providers to help treat advanced wounds rapidly, which will reduce damage caused by vascular disease. Another area where there’s been significant progress is through our government’s increased investments to expand home and community care while at the same time enabling Ontarians to stay, recover and get care in their homes, where they want to be, while at the same time helping ease pressure on hospitals, preventing avoidable visits to emergency departments and supporting the timely discharge of patients. Home care patients are getting more hours of care from personal support workers than ever before with more than 44 million hours of publicly funded personal support visits, as well as more nursing visits and more visits to receive the therapy they need. We have seen significant reduction in patient wait-lists: 95% for personal support services, 20% for therapy services and 78% for nursing services. And over the next three years, home care volumes are up by approximately 33%. The province is also continuing to boost support for hospital-to-home transitions, helping more patients experience seamless, safe and quicker transitions back home following their hospital stay. The program has expanded, with 64 hospitals now participating, which has helped lower unplanned hospital readmission rates for hospital-to-home patients by nearly 25%. Additionally, alternative-level-of-care volumes are the lowest they have been in a decade. Another key component of Ontario’s health system is immunization, one of the most effective public health investments that help prevent serious illness, reduce the spread of disease and alleviate pressures on our health care system. Ontario’s investment in publicly funded immunization programs provides access to 29 immunization products that protect against 23 diseases, helping people stay healthy throughout their lives. Recent program enhancements include the expansion of RSV immunization eligibility, helping to protect those most vulnerable. We have seen significant reduction in hospitalization for infants and seniors with the introduction of RSV immunization programming. The province continues to strongly encourage everyone to stay up to date on their immunizations, especially children returning to school who may have missed routine vaccines. Our government is also making record investments in mental health and addictions care, building a comprehensive and connected health care and addictions system that provides people and families with high-quality, evidence-based services and supports, and connects community, primary and acute care to better wrap around the needs of people living with mental health and addictions services. We’ve boosted investments to support early identification and intervention, expanded treatment and innovative programs, including through youth wellness hubs, mobile mental health and addictions clinics, and digital and virtual supports. From April 2025 to March 2026, there were nearly 99,000 visits to our youth wellness hubs across Ontario.

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

And we are investing more than $560 million to open 29 Homelessness and Addiction Recovery Treatment Hubs, or HART hubs, in communities across Ontario, which are already improving access to a range of comprehensive treatment and recovery services, including primary care, mental health supports, addictions care, social services, housing and employment supports. Thousands of client interactions have already taken place through HART hubs, and they have also supported over 530 people in accessing supportive housing. We are seeing the positive impacts in our communities, such as through the Somerset West Community Health Centre HART hub in Ottawa, where a client who had experienced instability and challenges over many years has made significant positive changes in his life since being connected to supportive housing and a dedicated support team. As a provider at Somerset noted, stories like his are a powerful reminder that recovery is rarely linear, but when people have access to stable housing, compassionate care and a team that continues to meet them where they are, meaningful and lasting change is possible—or from clients from the NorWest HART hub in Thunder Bay, who said about their experience, “I feel understood and genuinely cared for by staff and volunteers,” or “I feel a sense of community as well as family. I can get help with clothing, food and direction with addiction management. I am looking forward and excited about exploring the HART hub services.” And at the Simcoe county HART hub, over 100 people have already completed the recovery program and are getting their lives back on track. Our government also continues to make key investments to expand, modernize and support Ontario’s hospitals and local health care facilities. Our plan includes the creation of approximately $64 billion over the next decade in health infrastructure, supporting over 50 hospital projects and approximately 3,000 new hospital beds, on top of the 3,500 we have already added. We are further supporting our hospitals by providing up to a 4% increase in hospital funding for a fourth consecutive year and more than $300 million last year to support critical infrastructure upgrades and repairs at hospitals and community health care facilities across Ontario. We are investing more than a billion dollars in 2026 to increase the availability of paramedics, which includes a 9% average increase over 2025 funding to directly support land ambulance services. And our investments in the Dedicated Offload Nurses Program allows paramedics to get back into the community faster and respond to the next 911 call. As a result of this funding and fostering collaboration between paramedics and hospitals, we have seen provincial off-load times decline by nearly 70% since October 2022. We’ve also worked with paramedic services to implement over 300 innovative patient care models which allow paramedics to treat and refer patients to care in their community rather than only transporting them to a near hospital. And through the transportation of medically stable patients initiative, we continue to support paramedics and protect ambulance and paramedic availability, by providing northern communities with funding for non-ambulance vehicle transportation—medically stable patients to vital treatments like dialysis. By supporting hospitals to reduce surgical backlogs, we’ve seen a significant increase in publicly funded outpatient hip and knee replacement surgeries, by more than 186% and 226%, respectively. According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, the average wait time in Ontario for cataract surgery has improved by over 55%. And at the same time, our actions to expand cataract surgeries in community surgical and diagnostic centres have increased the number of cataract surgeries performed by over 172%.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

One minute remaining, Minister.

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

In 2025, nearly three million MRI and CT scans took place, the most scans ever performed and a 7% increase from the previous year. Chair, I could go on and talk about the successes that we have had, but at the end of the day, the Ministry of Health and the work that we are doing is about improving patient-focused care close to home, and I think that the stats and the investments that we are making and have been making and will continue to make are making an impact in all of our communities across Ontario. Whether they are in-home, in long-term-care facilities, in hospitals, we are making an impact, and I’m proud of that work. Thank you.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Thank you, Minister. Thank you for your presentation. We will now begin with questions and answers in rotations of 15 minutes for the official opposition members of the committee, 15 minutes for the third party of the committee, five minutes for the independent members of the committee and 15 minutes for the government members of the committee for the remainder of the allotted time. As always, please remember to make your comments through the Chair. For any staff appearing today, when you are called on to speak, please give your name and your title so we may accurately record in the Hansard who’s here today. I will start with the official opposition. I recognize MPP Lennox.

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Thank you for that presentation. That’s very helpful. You mentioned the projected cuts in federal funding that we’re going to be seeing. One of the things that we’ve missed out on in federal funding was any federal funding through pharmacare. BC, this year, will receive $250 million. Can you confirm that we will receive zero dollars in federal pharmacare dollars for diabetes medication and contraception because we did not sign on to federal pharmacare?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

Well, what I can confirm is the federal government has paused all negotiations, conversations and any interest in expanding the program. We have in Ontario a very robust drug program that provides for individuals under age 25, over the age of 65, individuals on ODSP, Ontario Works. Look, I was very clear about the need for the federal government to be part of the conversations. Tomorrow, we are having an emergency health ministers’ meeting to once again explain to the federal government what this fiscal cliff will cause in our communities. That work is ongoing. Deputy Richardson, I don’t know if there was anything else you wanted to add.

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

I think I got my answer there, thank you. It is a shame that we’re not receiving any dollars, because if we were in BC or if we were in Manitoba—they were proactive and signed on, and they’re getting hundreds of millions of dollars this year. And it’s especially sad given I’ve heard from a number of people who have reached out who have been denied life-saving newer cancer therapies because they have not been approved by this government for access. Many of them were in the news recently. So how can we justify to those patients who are being denied life-saving cancer treatment that we left hundreds of millions of dollars for pharmacare just on the table?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

Well, respectfully, Chair, the member opposite is conflating two very separate issues. I would like the deputy minister to highlight the work that Ontario is leading the Confederation in, particularly as related to FAST, getting that access to cancer drug therapies to Ontario residents literally over a year sooner than has historically been the case. And we now have other Canadian jurisdictions’ health ministers reaching out and saying, “How did Ontario do it?” We are leading, in Ontario, cancer care access, here. And while I will continue to fight and work with our finance minister and Premier Ford to make sure that we get those bilateral agreements to be extended, like mental health and addictions, like home and community care, it’s really important to understand that Ontario leads in access to cancer therapies. Deputy Richardson.

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Thank you, and actually, you did tell me about FAST last year when I asked a similar question, so I can move on to my next question. Minister, this past year, a constituent being treated for cancer was left in a hospital stretcher in a hallway for three days before getting into an actual hospital bed. And we know that that’s the case for an average of 1,425 Ontarians each and every single day here in Ontario. Your attempts to end hallway health care have actually resulted in them doubling during your tenure in government, and there’s nothing in the budget to directly address this problem. In fact, because of the lack of funding for our hospitals, the FAO recently suggested we will lose 2,400 hospital beds over the next three years. So, Minister, could you just provide a yes or no about whether or not you will actually achieve your target of ending hallway beds by what was 2025 but I assume continues to be your target—by this upcoming end of fiscal 2027?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

While the previous Liberal government froze hospital operating budgets for three years running, we have for the last four years expanded the number by 4%, over a billion dollars, annually for hospital operating dollars. We have seen already, since 2018, an increase in hospital beds of 3,500 beds, an investment and an increase—respectfully, Chair—that the member opposite and her Liberal colleagues continue to vote against. We are on track to expand another 3,000 additional hospital beds in the province of Ontario. Those are $64 billion worth of investments in hospitals literally across Ontario. Whether you live in Mississauga, in Windsor, in Niagara, in Ottawa, in Thunder Bay, in Timmins, you are seeing enhancements, expansions, investments in your hospitals because our government has made the commitment, through $64 billion, 50 different hospital builds, that new hospitals, expanded hospitals, renovated hospitals are getting those investments. We’ve already proven that we’ve expanded 3,500 beds, and we are on track for an additional 3,000 beds. Compare that—respectfully—to a Liberal government that froze hospital budgets for three years running. Deputy Richardson, I don’t know if you wanted to add anything further.

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Thank you. I appreciate that. With the picture that you paint, you would never know there were 1,400 patients in a hospital hallway today. So I think the reality of our constituents is different than what might be reflected in your book, but I’ll move on to another topic. You mentioned the significant investment, half a billion dollars in HART hub funding, and this was a creation of your ministry, a model that you came up with through the ministry, without consultation with the community. In your briefing book, you mentioned that as of December 2025, HART hubs had supported 100,000 client interactions. On first blush, that looks like a six-figure number, but then when you actually divide it down to see how many client interactions that is per day, that was only 13 client interactions per day over the first nine months that those HART hubs were operating. With the funding that you dedicated, that’s an average of $1,260 per client interaction over those first nine months, some of which might have been for a meal program or a shower or a drop-in. That’s quite an extraordinary amount of money per interaction. And we knew that because there wasn’t any consultation—this would be a slower and more costly roll-out than if it had been done in consultation with the community, who knew which services to expand. But my question is, now that we’re one and a half years into this three-year pilot, how are you determining value for money given that each interaction is costing about $1,200?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

I’m not sure—respectfully, Chair—if the member opposite is suggesting that we don’t need HART hubs in the province of Ontario. I fully believe that we need to move away from enabling people to use deadly drugs in our communities, and one way we are doing that is through our Homelessness and Addiction Recovery Treatment Hubs. We have now fully operationalized 29 across Ontario, and what we are seeing is people are getting access to supportive housing—900 new supportive housing opportunities for people because of our HART hub model. It is a three-year demonstration model, and we will take the input from all of those organizations that are working collaboratively together to provide services. Whether it is primary care, whether it is mental health and addictions services, whether it is access to housing and employment supports, different people need different services. Bringing organizations together has meant that that can happen in a very seamless, patient-focused way. I am very proud of the $560 million we’ve invested, and we will invest and watch where the best practices are. I gave some very specific examples, whether it was Ottawa or Barrie, where people are graduating, are back with their family, are back with their community. That, to me, is success, because, as I said in my opening remarks, at the end of the day, this ministry is about serving people. We need to do that, and we need to be creative about it. The HART hubs have been a great example of how that is working.

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Minister, respectfully, the HART hub transition has been anything but seamless. It’s been—

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

Then why am I getting—

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Excuse me, Minister. If I may finish—

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

—regular letters from your colleagues asking for HART hubs in their community—

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

If I may reclaim my time, Minister—

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

MPP Lennox, please make your comments through the Chair.

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Through the Chair: If I may reclaim my time—thank you—just so I can get my question out. Minister, the HART hub transition has been anything but seamless. We saw many of the HART hubs were not ready to open their doors on April 1 of the year that you said. Many have taken even up to 18 months to try to get even to partial programming, not even the full programming that you’ve offered. I have dedicated most of my career to expanding access to treatment for people with substance use disorders, and I can tell you that telling programs to arbitrarily start doing something that they’ve never done before, on a timeline that you arranged, versus consulting with the community and expanding options for treatment at scale—there are different ways of doing this, but you chose a very expensive, very slow way and a way that actually had no input from the community. But my question to you, Minister, was: How are you actually assessing the outcome data? You’ve said this is a three-year pilot. Certainly, you’re looking at interim outcomes. What outcomes can you point to that would actually suggest this is good value for money? Because the last time I checked—just a couple of months ago—our wait times for a bed-based treatment were on average three and a half months for someone wanting substance use treatment.

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

Well, in fact, Chair, the application-based program to host a HART hub in community was based on bringing organizations that were already working in those communities together. We have some excellent organizations, whether it is mental health, whether it is supportive housing, whether it is primary care. What the HART hub model did—and it was application-based, so communities and organizations had the opportunity to put together and submit their applications. We now have those organizations collaboratively working together. So instead of saying today, “Mrs. Jones, you need primary care, and if you are looking for mental health and addiction services, here’s a phone number”—we’re not doing that, because we know we can do better. We have excellent organizations who are doing that and that’s why the application-based HART hub model was to bring those existing organizations together and say, “How can you better utilize your facilities, your clinical staff, to make sure that we are making patient-focused front-line decisions?” Deputy Richardson, did you want to add to that?

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Please state your name for the Hansard.

Official source

Ms. Deborah Richardson

Deborah Richardson, Deputy Minister of Health. I just wanted to share a couple of data points that we’ve been collecting from the people who are working on the ground with communities. There have been over 46,000 clients who have attended the HART hubs to date, and—this number just blew my mind, having worked in the community as well—485,000 client interactions. It took a while to get up and running, because some of these organizations were new, some of them were merging other entities and then also it was just connecting the dots with community. That’s why we went through—we heard from communities. A number of cities and municipalities had come to us about the concept of HART hubs, and that’s why we ended up advancing that to government as an idea. Really, it is what’s connecting all of the dots in terms of treatment: somewhere where someone can just go get a coffee, somewhere where somebody can go to gain the trust of the people who they’re working with—

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

In mind of time, I’m just going to reclaim my time. Thank you so much. I will point out that even though that number of interactions has gone up, that’s still an average between $250 and $300 per interaction, which is sort of approaching the cost of six or seven physician visits, so it’s still a fairly costly model. I will just move on, though. When we look at substance use treatment—you’ve talked about expanding access to treatment, wanting to promote a recovery-focused model. Minister, could you just provide a yes-or-no answer as to whether three and a half months’ wait for bed-based treatment is an acceptable wait time in your mind?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

And can you provide a yes-or-no answer as to whether the fiscal cliff that we are facing as a province—and indeed across Canada—by March 31 is a real and imminent danger? Because I believe it is. We have a federal government that is not at the table and we need to make sure—all of us in this room understand the value and importance of the mental health and addiction services that we are offering in the province of Ontario, and we have to have a federal government that is part of those conversations.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

One minute remaining.

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Minister, I think it’s really unfortunate that you couldn’t provide a yes-or-no answer and that you chose instead to point fingers at another level of government when, in fact, administering substance use treatment is your responsibility and has been for the last eight years. But for my final question, there are actually—

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

So you don’t want us to do a bilateral agreement—

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Excuse me, Minister, it is my time to ask questions. Thank you. Through the Chair: May I reclaim my time? Thank you.

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Continue.

Official source

MPP Robin Lennox

Fantastic. Minister, one thing that you could tangibly do to improve access to substance use care would be to medicalize withdrawal management services so that they can actually treat the complex withdrawal symptoms that we’re seeing. I understand that this has been an issue raised to you prior. Is there anything in the budget to actually enhance and bring up to quality of care our withdrawal management services for people with complex withdrawal syndromes?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

What we have been able to do with our expansion of primary care is—

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Thank you. We’ll now move on to the third party. I recognize MPP Fairclough.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thank you, Minister, for your opening remarks and to all off the staff that are here today to support this discussion, an important one on the investments that we need to be making in health care. Nobody wants to end up in a hospital, in particular in the hallway of a hospital, but with the oldest of the baby boomers now turning 80 this year and the population growing, we know that people are going to need more care. What we’ve seen in the media reporting this last year is that we’ve got 77 public hospitals that were not able to balance their budget, and they were required by you to submit a plan for how they were going to reach that. The FAO last week said that it’s not feasible for the government to ask the health sector to maintain the same level of service with less resources without additional funding or system efficiencies and projects a loss of 2,000 hospital beds and 7,000 nurses over the next two years now. And we are seeing those layoffs, right? We’ve seen layoffs just last week. We saw it in Hamilton Health Sciences, we’ve seen it in Ottawa, we’ve seen it actually in many of the cities that you’ve named. My question is, with this plan you’ve tabled, can you share with us the service reductions that are contained in these plans by hospitals with your ministry and which ones you actually consider the highest risk to have service impacts for people?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

Well, first of all, we did fund additionally, for the last four years, two hospitals’ base funding—an additional $1 billion every year for the last four years, on average a 4% increase. So we are in fact enhancing and ensuring that our hospital partners have that fiscal room. We are also asking, through a “path to balance” process that is in progress right now, each hospital—and to their credit, every single hospital in Ontario submitted their plan for how they are going to ensure that front-line patient care continues to be their number one priority. We are working through that through regional tables—so where we have hospital leadership working together, assessing each other’s plans and making sure that best practices that are happening in many hospitals across Ontario are being shared with equivalent hospitals. We’ve seen—

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Through the Chair, may have a follow-up question, please?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

Well, can I finish my answer?

Official source

The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Continue.

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

Thank you, Chair. There is a lot of work that is happening on the path to balance, and it is in progress. So to suggest that we should be tabling those plans doesn’t work because we are still working with those hospital partners. Deputy Richardson—

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thank you. Maybe I can ask a follow-up, then. Could you please just tell me how many hospitals remain in operating deficit? Also, I’m interested in understanding working capital for hospitals, which is a measure of the health of their ability to meet their bills and make payroll. Could you maybe explain to us what this plan—those two metrics. How many will remain in deficit with this plan on the table today and what is the current state of working capital in hospitals?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

Again, the FAO report, the financial accountability report, is a snapshot in time. We do not flow all of the money that the Ministry of Health supports all of our stakeholders with, all of our hospitals, on April 1. It is transferred over multiple quarters through the year, so when the Financial Accountability Office is looking at a moment in time, they are not seeing the complete picture. It is far more appropriate to look at the actual budget and expenditures at the end of the year to see where that money has flown. As I said, 4% increase for the last four years, $1 billion on to their operating-dollars-based funding. It is fiscally prudent for our government to ensure that that money is spent appropriately.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

Through the Chair, if I may ask: What I’m hearing from the minister then is that she’s not feeling there are any risks to impact of service with this plan on the table here, despite the fact that we know that hospitals are likely projecting deficits. We know that there are challenges on working capital. But I’m hearing there are going to be no impacts to service this year. Is that correct?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

What you’re hearing is what I said, which is for four years running, we have increased hospital operating dollars by $1 billion a year. That is right on their baseline: 4% on average increase. I would respectfully also compare that to a Liberal government for three years running who gave zero dollars to hospital budgets, bottom-line. We are making sure that those dollars that are flowing to all of our hospital sectors, all of our hospital partners, are being spent appropriately on front-line patient focus in care. That is what the “path to balance” exercise is about. It is about sharing best practices and ensuring that we are getting the most appropriate care.

Official source

Ms. Lee Fairclough

I do just want to ask a question: You talked about some of the capital projects that you have got. The FAO projects that your funding plan will support 2,407 fewer funded beds in this year and by 2028-29, from 221 to 205 beds per 100,000 Ontarians, while your budget promises 3,000 new beds for capital projects. How are you going to reconcile that? You’re sort of saying you’re building more, but we’re saying that actually, you’re funding quite a few less. Does it make sense to build hospitals and not actually fund the operating for them?

Official source

Hon. Sylvia Jones

It is very important to reinforce that our path to balance program is in no way impacting decreasing patient bed access. In fact, as my opening remarks said, we have added an additional 3,500 beds already into the system. We are on track for an additional 3,000 hospital beds. I look at expansions at Waypoint in Penetanguishene, where we have taken shell space and made sure, through capital investments from our government, to ensure that they have additional beds; shell space opportunities that we are actively working with Halton Healthcare on. Those types of projects suggest that we are in fact enhancing the number of patient beds in the province of Ontario, in our system. We have seen that through the hard numbers: 3,500 already, on track for an additional 3,000.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thank you, Chair. I will switch gears. I would like to talk about children’s mental health. It is reported that roughly 28,000 children and youth are on wait-lists for community mental health services. Some have been waiting for up to two and half years. We know what the Auditor General’s report said as well about child and youth mental health. But this budget estimates $533.9 million for child and youth mental health, which is actually $28.5 million less than was spent last year and below what was spent in 2024-25. That seems to be going in the wrong direction for what the Auditor General was hoping that we would do for child and youth mental health. What is the current average wait time for child and youth community mental health services? What is your target?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

Through our $3.8 billion, working with the federal government over 10 years—

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

Yes, I think a lot of that is federal money.

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

—we’re building a—respectfully, this is a joint program between the federal government, operated and initiated by the provincial government. The member opposite, as a member of the Liberal Party, should understand that the fiscal cliff is real. If she believes, and is advocating, for children, youth and mental health, which I believe everyone is, then she should also be focused on ensuring that we do not have a partner who is walking away at a critical time. We’re investing $232 million in, again, new base funding for community mental health, including investments in early psychosis intervention; a program called youth wellness hubs that did not exist in the province of Ontario before 2018 is ensuring that young people who are asking questions, who are concerned, have an opportunity in a very open, welcoming environment, to ask questions and ensure that they make informed choices. Those are the investments we’re making.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

Thanks very much. I mean, I’m not hearing any numbers—actually specific numbers—for how many more will receive the care.

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

Some 100,000 youth have been served through the youth wellness hubs—

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

You talked about the federal transfer money that will be missing on mental health. I’d like to know, actually, what the provincial match on programs like HART hubs has been. That’s a $500-million program. When I looked at the Auditor General’s review of that program, there was not a lot of provincial dollars that were put in to match that federal investment—

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

I’m happy to let—

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

So maybe you can speak a little bit to that—

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Let’s have one person at a time, please.

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

I’m happy to let Deputy Richardson explain.

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Ms. Deborah Richardson

The majority of the HART hub announcement comes from the provincial purse, I guess, so to speak. I think that there are three HART hubs that were funded out of the 19 from the federal allocation, so there will be impacts, should we not get that money past March 31, 2027.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

But the majority is provincial?

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Ms. Deborah Richardon

The majority is provincial.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

Oh, that’s good to hear. That’s great, because that seems different than what was reported previously. That’s good. Okay, I’ll just switch gears for a second again here. We’ve seen a pretty dramatic rise in boys and young men in particular that are experiencing gambling addiction since the government introduced its policy allowing dozens of private gambling companies from the US and other jurisdictions to advertise their online gambling websites on sportscasts, TV and radio. These companies are reaching right into the pockets of young men and boys right now through their smartphones. Of course, I would like those ads to be stopped, but in the meantime, as the harms and the demand for treatment and emergency care keep growing, what is your ministry doing to expand access to gambling treatment, especially for young men and minors in this budget plan?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

To date, we’ve spent $28 million in assisting individuals who are at risk or having challenges with gambling addiction. Of course, through the work of the Ministry of Finance, we also fund, very aggressively, public awareness campaigns on understanding what the risks are and where to go if they believe a loved one is gambling inappropriately or at risk of addiction. Those investments continue through the AGCO, as well as the Ministry of Finance.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

Respectfully, you would probably agree with me as the Minister of Health that it doesn’t seem that it’s working, because we’re seeing the number of people reaching out for care actually increasing, so I do hope—

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

That would suggest to me that the public awareness campaigns are working because people know where to seek help.

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Ms. Lee Fairclough

Well, I would argue the flip: Couldn’t we actually reduce the harm to begin with? This is about good public health practices and getting ahead of problems. With that, I’ll stop and I’ll turn to my colleague.

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

I recognize MPP Shamji.

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Mr. Adil Shamji

Thanks, Chair. Minister, I’d like to take you back in time to April 2026, when you berated a room full of hospital executives and told them, essentially, that they weren’t thankful enough. You implied that they were being bad partners and you said, and I quote, “You will have to forgive me if I get a bit frustrated.” You repeated the same claim that you made today: that hospital funding has gone up by 4%. But you’ll have to forgive me for wondering why I think those hospital executives should be grateful. I’m looking at a list of 81 out of 135 hospitals reporting deficits for 2026: Hospital for Sick Children, a $73.1-million deficit for 2026; Trillium Health Partners, a $64.7-million deficit; Unity Health Toronto, $45.2 million; Lakeridge Health, $41.2 million. I could go on and on and on, 81 times. Minister, successive estimates and successive estimates and successive budgets by this government have led hospitals in Ontario to have deficits, but this year will be the worst year of deficits. Why is it that your estimates do nothing to eliminate these deficits this year?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

Again, I would remind the member opposite that the FAO report is a snapshot, a moment in time.

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Mr. Adil Shamji

This is not an FAO report—

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

One person at a time, please.

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Mr. Adil Shamji

These statistics are from the publicly reported financial documents of the hospitals, not the FAO.

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

What we are seeing, as we work through with our hospital partners, is a 4% increase over four years. Again, I respectfully have to make a comparison between a Liberal government for three years running that gave zero dollars to hospital bottom-line operating. We have—

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Mr. Adil Shamji

Thank you, Minister. That’s fine.

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

One minute remaining.

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Mr. Adil Shamji

Under a Liberal government, hospitals have never reported deficits on the scale that we are seeing like this—in fact, nothing like this at all. But I’m going to settle on something. You have multiple times tried to discredit the FAO report that came out last week, which projected thousands of cuts, thousands of bed losses over the next three years arising from the massive hospital deficits arising under your watch. Can you commit to this committee right here and right now that under your watch, there will be no service cuts to staffing or bed levels in hospitals in the next three years? Yes or no?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

What I would like to commit—and I will commit—is that we are actively engaged with our hospital partners on regional tables, ensuring that their path to balance is laser focused on front-line patient care.

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Mr. Adil Shamji

So you will not commit to that. How many bed cuts and layoffs are acceptable to you?

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

One person at a time, please.

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

I would like Deputy Richardson to highlight some specific work we are doing in the big program. If you would, Deputy Richardson?

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Thank you. I will now go on to the independent member. Go ahead. I recognize MPP Clancy.

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Ms. Aislinn Clancy

I also want to echo my colleague’s gratitude to have so many folks—sardines—brought to the table.

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

But you’re not letting them speak.

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Ms. Aislinn Clancy

I know we’re short on time, so sorry if we don’t give you all the chance. But I do appreciate that you took time out of your schedules and made your way down here. I want to thank the minister for her comments, to get started. There are lots of bright spots, and I do want to thank you. I noticed in my area that the investment in primary care is working. I’m hearing back from people in my community and from Community Healthcaring, for example—gratitude for new money to address the needs of more folks, especially in this particular instance, folks with complex health care needs. I hear you on the concern about the federal government, so I’ll take that back and work with my federal colleagues in the region of Waterloo to raise those concerns forward. I am glad that we have money for HART hubs, but I still feel like there is a shortfall when it comes to folks facing homelessness. We have 85,000 people homeless in the province of Ontario, and that number is set to rise to 300,000. So while I appreciate the 900 beds, I’m concerned that it’s not going to meet the moment. There was an increase between 2022 and 2026, but estimates say that the funding won’t increase. Between 2026 and 2029, I see $4 billion your government is spending on jail. Jail would cost $12,000 a month, whereas supportive housing costs $4,000. What I’m hearing from providers is that the federal government is committing dollars to build supportive housing projects, but Ontario will be missing out because we aren’t committing the operating dollars. Can you explain why you’ve chosen to not expand more operating dollars for supportive housing to meet the moment, given the circumstances that municipalities across Ontario are facing right now?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

There are a couple of things to unpack there. As part of the HART hubs—homelessness and addiction recovery treatment—we’ve actually been able to add an additional 900 supportive housing units, so there is an expansion piece with the HART hubs. The other piece—and the member opposite raised it—with the primary care expansion, one thing that I’m particularly proud of is, we have been able to embed and ensure that applications for expansion include mental health clinicians. What we don’t want to do is have a system that only helps the most critical. We need to get to people sooner, and part of that is through our primary care expansion so that mental health workers are embedded with physicians, with nurse practitioners, with dietitians in those organizations. We are also seeing through our youth wellness hubs—again, something that we didn’t have in the province of Ontario before 2018, where people have access when they are in need and seeking answers and ultimately getting support in community. There is and there has been an increase of an additional 900 supportive housing units through the HART hub model.

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Ms. Aislinn Clancy

Do you think that you could commit to working with the Ministry of Children, Community and Social Services and MMAH? Because in my community, we have seen a doubling of seniors facing homelessness in one year. I think, in the last provincial budget, we had $4 billion spent on new jail beds and only $53 million spent on new supportive housing beds. So I appreciate the 900; I think every little bit counts. I’ve seen amazing projects in my community really address folks—because we know that, if you’re facing mental health and addiction challenges but you don’t have a roof over your head, it’s kind of a waste of money to get care when you’re still facing homelessness.

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

One minute remaining.

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Ms. Aislinn Clancy

Will you commit to having conversations with your colleagues in cabinet about the vast array of supportive housing needs that aren’t being met?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

We are already doing that. And in fact, in budget 2026, we made an announcement of an additional 425 units that will be added from budget 2026.

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Ms. Aislinn Clancy

I think my next question is about privatization. I’ve been hearing from hospitals that their operating rooms are empty many, many hours of the day. Here we are investing dollars into privatized community clinics, which cost more per procedure, as opposed to funding hospitals to do more procedures. Why have you made that choice?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

Well, in fact, as Premier Ford often says, it’s not an either/or. We have, through a $1-billion investment specifically targeted to our hospital partners—

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

Thank you. We will now go to the government side. I recognize MPP Leardi.

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Mr. Anthony Leardi

Minister, I have a question regarding mental health and federal funding under the bilateral agreements that Ontario has with the federal government. At the present time, we have a bilateral agreement with the federal government that provides approximately $11 billion of funding for various services. Those services include mental health services, community care services and home care services. By my calculation, that $11 billion represents approximately 11% of the Ontario health care budget. My understanding is that this bilateral agreement with the federal government is set to expire on March 31, 2027. That’s less than a year away. My question, Minister, is, if the federal government decides not to renew this bilateral agreement and decides not to transfer the $11 billion to the province of Ontario, what are the consequences that might occur if the federal government fails to do that?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

Thank you. The consequences are real, and they impact people and they impact programs and services, and they ultimately impact jobs. For Ontarians that rely on our health care system for mental health services, we are looking at a cut of almost half a billion dollars. If there is no extension of the bilateral—and we’re not even talking about adding extra for inflation—it would lead to the closure of three HART hubs. It would lead to a significant loss of beds across Ontario, including 15 secure treatment beds for children and youth and a minimum of 180 24/7 safe beds in over 35 municipalities. It would lead to a cut of over 1,000 supportive housing units, 8,000 people losing access to free psychotherapy services. These are all programs and services that our government has worked very hard to ramp up and operationalize. Not having that bilateral extended is a real and imminent threat to our homelessness addiction recovery program in the province of Ontario.

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

MPP Leardi.

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Mr. Anthony Leardi

Thank you, Minister. I now have a question regarding MRIs and CT scans. My riding, the riding of Essex, is serviced by two hospitals. One is Erie Shores hospital in Leamington, which received operational funding for a new MRI. The other is Windsor Regional Hospital, which received operational funding for both an MRI and a CT scan. These were new services that were provided, and of course my riding is very grateful for those new services provided by two MRI machines and another CT scanner. My question, Minister, is this: With regard to the expansion of MRI and CT availability—and we all know that this is extremely important, to get these diagnostics, for positive patient outcomes—my question is, how is this expansion of MRIs and CT scans expanding the number of diagnostic treatments occurring in the province of Ontario?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

Well, it really truly has been a program that has succeeded across Ontario. In the fiscal year 2025-26, Ontario hospitals completed over 1.1 million MRIs and 1.8 million CT scans, which is the most ever that we’ve been able to do in the province of Ontario. As the member opposite highlighted, we have approved and are now paying for the operation of 50 new MRIs, often in communities and hospitals that never had them before. This is patient care closer to home. When an emergency room doctor wants to order an MRI and a CT and has to take time away from their emergency department duties to phone and find an available MRI, to phone and find access through paramedics to transport that patient, we are taking away time from that emergency department physician to actually help the next person. When I announced an MRI in my own community, an emergency room doctor walked through literally how much time it was taking her to access these MRI scans and what it was going to lead to as a game-changer to have these operationalized in hospitals—in some cases, in communities that have literally been asking for decades for an MRI.

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The Chair (Mr. Brian Riddell)

I recognize MPP Pang.

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Mr. Billy Pang

I have a question for the minister on the hospital infrastructure funding. Building health infrastructure across Ontario is essential to strengthening and connecting the province’s health care system to better serve Ontarians. What investments has the government made since 2022 to expand and modernize health infrastructure across the province, and what progress has been achieved to date?

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Hon. Sylvia Jones

There’s no doubt that a growing demand for health services—and, as our population ages, we need to make sure that our infrastructure and our communities are there to serve. Infrastructure renewal is an essential part of that repair and renewal process. We have, as I have mentioned previously, committed $64 billion in hospital capital renewal funds, leading to over 50 hospital projects, whether it is net new hospital, expanded or renovated hospital. We have seen, through a program, hospital infrastructure renewal fund—HIRF, as we affectionately call it—making sure that those imminent and necessary repairs happen quickly. That program has been—and, Deputy Richardson, correct me if I’m wrong—I believe a 10% increase in the last number of years to make sure that we keep up with the renewal piece. Deputy Richardson, is there anything you want to add or I’ve missed?

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